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Offline echo1434

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Re: As much as I hate "vs." threads: DPA 4060 vs. CA-11/14 omni
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2009, 06:58:50 PM »
Oh my dear, are Apples or Oranges better? This AT`s are Cardoids and not the in the same as DPA 40XX with superperfect Omni Polardiagrams + it will never never sound like an omni, are you kidding? Please use Q Tips :-)

Excuse me?

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/b31ed9966bc83c9c/index.html

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/AT-P12100


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Offline aaronji

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Re: As much as I hate "vs." threads: DPA 4060 vs. CA-11/14 omni
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2009, 07:52:23 PM »
^^^ Simmer down, simmer down... ;)

He might have mis-read your post a bit, but you're the one posting about 4061's vs. SP-CMC-8's for loud rock...

Well, I'm convinced that at a typical rock show, 4061s and CMC-8 omnis will sound virtually identical.

...in a thread about 4060's vs. Church stuff for recording cello...

I've heard great things about the DPA 4060 and classical music, which is what I'll primarily be recording.  Well...classical/jazz, but usually with a small number of instrumentalists (from solo to octet).  But I don't currently have the money for a pair of DPA 4060, so I've been looking for a reasonable substitute.  The Church microphones are held in high regard here, and I've read posts comparing the two, so I was wondering how comparable the two actually are for my application.  One major instrument I'll be recording is the cello (often solo), and I really need to pick up the deep resonances of the instrument. 

Oh, and I also plan to do live sound reinforcement on my cello with whatever microphone I choose, so let me know if anything is incompatible in that field.

Offline headroom

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Re: As much as I hate "vs." threads: DPA 4060 vs. CA-11/14 omni
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2009, 02:56:34 AM »
O Jes  AT 934 is an Omni but take a look at ther weird Polar Pattern. And the DPA`s have a Impedance wich is 1/10 of the AT`s. We have checked it it against the Reference DPA 4006, it was a bit Hyped to Hifi and not Music. I have used 40XX  for a Swiss Cinema Movie and it was fantastic results straight out of the box. Choir of  2-80 Poeple in Churches and in smaller Rooms with Jazz an Big Monochords. 40XX is Killer state of the Art but take the grills away and use some Equalizing +3 db 14 KHz.

http://www.johleundwerche.ch/johlendwerche/Index.html

Quote:
it's a little easier to make a good omni at a certain price point than to make an "equally good" (whatever that may mean specifically) directional microphone.
One basic thing to understand about omnidirectional microphones is that most of them aren't omnidirectional at all frequencies--their pickup pattern becomes narrower at high frequencies. This is because their physical size (even the usual "small" studio quality microphones of 20 - 22 mm diameter) obstructs the short wavelengths of high frequency sound. Smaller omni microphones are available, but they tend to be noisier than the best of the "usual" small microphones. So while some people prefer them, in some cases quite passionately, they aren't right for every engineer or application and are still something of a special taste.

Now if the pickup pattern becomes narrower at high frequencies, that means that sound picked up in front of the microphone will have more high-frequency energy than sound picked up from all other angles. And that can be a good thing in itself--say if you are recording from a considerable distance in a reverberant room and you want to pick up distinctly more detail from the sounds on stage than from the echoes in the hall. It does mean, however, that even though a microphone is called "omni," you still have to aim it properly! But many classic mono recordings and broadcasts were made back in the 1940s and '50s with just one well-placed pressure microphone picking up an entire orchestra, or even an entire opera performance.

Since you have to back the microphone well away from the stage in order to get a good overall balance that way (i.e. not emphasize whoever's in front and at the center too much), the microphones designed for this type of pickup generally had more or less flat "overall" response. But given the fact that the on-axis response at high frequencies must be greater than the response for all other angles, this meant that their on-axis response showed a considerable rise at high frequencies--often 8 dB or so around 9 or 10 kHz. This is called a "diffuse-field equalized" pressure microphone, and some examples of it today would be the Neumann KM 183 or KM 130, the Schoeps CMC 33, CMC 53 or CMC 63, or any of the microphones in which a small pressure transducer is embedded in a somewhat larger sphere (the prototype being the "classic" Neumann M 50).

At the opposite end of the spectrum would be an omni microphone designed for flat on-axis response--a "free-field equalized" microphone. It's useful in the extreme opposite situation: close miking. Given the narrowing of the pattern at high frequencies, this can only be achieved with a corresponding rolloff of off-axis response at high frequencies. I will be recording a concert with a pair of this type of microphone in a few hours; I haven't got much choice about where the microphones must go in the hall, since it is at a foreign consulate where certain security rules are paramount, and the microphones will be receiving much more direct sound than I normally prefer. So I plan on using a pair of Schoeps CMC 52, a type which I don't often use (though musicians generally like the sound a lot). They are as flat on axis as any measurement microphones that I know of. The closest equivalent type from Neumann would be the model KM 131.


Offline Gutbucket

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Re: As much as I hate "vs." threads: DPA 4060 vs. CA-11/14 omni
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2009, 05:37:14 PM »
The [DPA microdot-XLR] adapter may output 5v.

Question: did you measure the voltage on the mic.  Ie., the adaptor under load?  Perhaps this is where the 2.5V comes from?  That is, when you hook up the mic you get 2.5V across the mic and 2.5V or so on a resitor *internal* to the phantom adapter.

Note that 3V supply is not enough.  You need some volts to drop across the load resistor.

I have two pairs of 4060. One set runs on the R-09s plug-in power, one set doesn't. What's the plug-in voltage on the R-09, like 3.5v?

I use them with either the DPA MMA6000 Preamp (5v) or church Uglies with Maha 9.6v rechargeables that typically measure 10.5 volts or so.  I haven't measured the mic power voltage of the Uglies to see if they drop the voltage any.

[edit- I don't know what the 2.5v you mention is referring to.

I'm asking you to measure the voltage on the mic, when connected to the power supply.  Can you do this?  The open circuit voltage may be 5v, but the voltage under load should be quite a bit lower.

As far as the Edirol R09 goes, it has 2.5v of plug in power with a series (internal) 2.2k load resistor.  Not enough volts/current for the DPA406x at all.  But, I've been using this for a lot of mics (AT853, Church CA11, Sennheiser MKE40, MKE2, KE4, and Countryman B3) without problems.

I can do that this weekend sometime if you like.  I'll measure it with both preamps.

Richard, my apologies, this took me a week to get around to.  Let me know what this means to you as my strong suit isn't electrical engineering-


DPA 4060
33k ohms - resistance measured across mic


Church Audio UGLY preamp powered with '9.6v' rechargable NiMH battery measured at 10.2V charged
15ma - preamp's current draw through battery (mics attached, preamp output disconnected)
7.5V - open circuit mic power voltage
0.74mA - current draw through DPA 4060
2.8V - Voltage drop across DPA 4060


DPA MMA6000 preamp powered with '9.6v' rechargable NiMH battery measured at 10.2V charged
13mA - preamp's current draw through battery (mics attached, preamp output disconnected)
8.9v - open circuit mic power voltage
0.92mA - current draw through DPA 4060
2.8V - Voltage drop across DPA 4060
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 08:16:33 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: As much as I hate "vs." threads: DPA 4060 vs. CA-11/14 omni
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2009, 06:13:38 PM »
The [DPA microdot-XLR] adapter may output 5v.

Question: did you measure the voltage on the mic.  Ie., the adaptor under load?  Perhaps this is where the 2.5V comes from?  That is, when you hook up the mic you get 2.5V across the mic and 2.5V or so on a resitor *internal* to the phantom adapter.

Note that 3V supply is not enough.  You need some volts to drop across the load resistor.

I have two pairs of 4060. One set runs on the R-09s plug-in power, one set doesn't. What's the plug-in voltage on the R-09, like 3.5v?

I use them with either the DPA MMA6000 Preamp (5v) or church Uglies with Maha 9.6v rechargeables that typically measure 10.5 volts or so.  I haven't measured the mic power voltage of the Uglies to see if they drop the voltage any.

[edit- I don't know what the 2.5v you mention is referring to.

I'm asking you to measure the voltage on the mic, when connected to the power supply.  Can you do this?  The open circuit voltage may be 5v, but the voltage under load should be quite a bit lower.

As far as the Edirol R09 goes, it has 2.5v of plug in power with a series (internal) 2.2k load resistor.  Not enough volts/current for the DPA406x at all.  But, I've been using this for a lot of mics (AT853, Church CA11, Sennheiser MKE40, MKE2, KE4, and Countryman B3) without problems.

I can do that this weekend sometime if you like.  I'll measure it with both preamps.

Richard, my appologies, this took me a week to get around to.  Let me know what this means to you as my strong suit isn't electrical engineering-


DPA 4060
33k ohms - resistance measured across mic


Church Audio UGLY preamp powered with '9.6v' rechargable NiMH battery measured at 10.2V charged
15ma - preamp's current draw through battery (mics attached, preamp output disconnected)
7.5V - open curcuit mic power voltage
0.74mA - current draw through DPA 4060
2.8V - Voltage drop across DPA 4060


DPA MMA6000 preamp powered with '9.6v' rechargable NiMH battery measured at 10.2V charged
13mA - preamp's current draw through battery (mics attached, preamp output disconnected)
8.9v - open curcuit mic power voltage
0.92mA - current draw through DPA 4060
2.8V - Voltage drop across DPA 4060

Thanks, Gut!

Yep, the mic seems to want 2.8V across it, and it will adjust the current (within reason) to make that happen.  It would be interesting to know what is inside the capsule itself.  There is obviously something more than just a FET.  Probably a FET followed by a second "driving" transistor.  The advantage of this is the wire can be very long, and the mic can drive low impedance inputs.

So, in plain language, you need at least 5V to drive these mics, with the resistor adjusted to give approx 2.8V at 0.7mA.

Thanks for the measurements...

  Richard
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 06:18:08 PM by illconditioned »
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: As much as I hate "vs." threads: DPA 4060 vs. CA-11/14 omni
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2009, 08:19:46 PM »
Makes sense, as they offer rather long extension cables for these mics that are longer than most 'plug in power' type mic cables.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline echo1434

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Re: As much as I hate "vs." threads: DPA 4060 vs. CA-11/14 omni
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2009, 10:39:30 PM »
O Jes  AT 934 is an Omni but take a look at ther weird Polar Pattern. And the DPA`s have a Impedance wich is 1/10 of the AT`s. We have checked it it against the Reference DPA 4006, it was a bit Hyped to Hifi and not Music. I have used 40XX  for a Swiss Cinema Movie and it was fantastic results straight out of the box. Choir of  2-80 Poeple in Churches and in smaller Rooms with Jazz an Big Monochords. 40XX is Killer state of the Art but take the grills away and use some Equalizing +3 db 14 KHz.

Ok... I have nothing against technical specs like this, but I think one's ears are the best thing in analyzing the comparison I was talking about.

Anyway, I realize my comments are not 100% relevant to the matter at hand, so I've create a new topic about the difference between DPA 4061s to CMC-8 omnis:

http://www.taperssection.com/index.php/topic,115418


Offline Justinasia

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Re: As much as I hate "vs." threads: DPA 4060 vs. CA-11/14 omni
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2009, 11:17:47 PM »

DPA 4060
33k ohms - resistance measured across mic


Church Audio UGLY preamp powered with '9.6v' rechargable NiMH battery measured at 10.2V charged
15ma - preamp's current draw through battery (mics attached, preamp output disconnected)
7.5V - open circuit mic power voltage
0.74mA - current draw through DPA 4060
2.8V - Voltage drop across DPA 4060


DPA MMA6000 preamp powered with '9.6v' rechargable NiMH battery measured at 10.2V charged
13mA - preamp's current draw through battery (mics attached, preamp output disconnected)
8.9v - open circuit mic power voltage
0.92mA - current draw through DPA 4060
2.8V - Voltage drop across DPA 4060

Please forgive a newbie question, but, does the above give an indication that one or other of these devices is better for driving the DPA 4060 mics? Or does anyone have an opinion about that?


Offline Gutbucket

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Re: As much as I hate "vs." threads: DPA 4060 vs. CA-11/14 omni
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2009, 10:07:59 AM »
Ether of those preamps will power the mics properly.  Both sound clean.  The DPA has more available gain, but the 4060s are sensitive enough to never need that extra gain range even for quiet acoustics and nature recording IME, since if you really need that much additional gain the noise of the mics becomes a problem.  The MMA6000 is is easier to adjust accurately and to can match channel levels in the field since the gain pots are marked and are 'detented' in 2.5db increments.  It also has a few other things the CA-Ugly doesn't like a very good 'low-battery warning light' that gives plenty of warning, possibly longer runtime on a 9v, and a low-cut switch (which I never use).

The CA-Ugly's strong suit is it's incredibly small size and it's lower price, it is harder to adjust and has no low battery warning. Without 'detents' on the gain controls it can be adjusted to balance the levels of mics with slightly different sensitivities as long as you don't touch the gain after that calibration.

They both work well and sound great with the 4060s so the choice depends more on what you use them for and which of those features are important to you.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: As much as I hate "vs." threads: DPA 4060 vs. CA-11/14 omni
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2009, 07:25:18 PM »
Right.. but um, where did the 5v figure you're correcting come from Moke?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline macdaddy

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Re: As much as I hate "vs." threads: DPA 4060 vs. CA-11/14 omni
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2009, 07:31:39 PM »
maybe from illconditioned's post above...

Quote
So, in plain language, you need at least 5V to drive these mics, with the resistor adjusted to give approx 2.8V at 0.7mA.
-macdaddy ++

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: As much as I hate "vs." threads: DPA 4060 vs. CA-11/14 omni
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2009, 07:36:02 PM »
Ok. Now that I go back I see that I also guessed at the MMA6000 mic supply voltage being around 5v before I actually got around measuring it..  sure enough 8.9v

Apologies for any confusion.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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