Author Topic: How do Core Sound Cardioids compare to Church Audio CA-14s? (Read 15509 times)

ideal77dlr · « **on:** March 10, 2011, 11:28:05 AM »

I have the oppotunity to record a fairly large rock show with my friend's Core Sound Cardioids - I was going to use my CA-14s (which I love) to do what could be loosely described as a 'stack tape' (A-B, about 15-30 feet from the stack)

Are the Core Sounds suited to this in the same way the CA-14s are? I've recorded this way with the CA-14s before and have been very pleased with the results.

Are the Core Sound Cardioids generally a bit better that the CAs? My friend says he payed a lot for them about 10 years ago....

any thoughts greatly appreciated!

acidjack · « **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2011, 12:41:51 PM »

CSC=garbage CA-14=not garbage. I ran CSCs for a few years. Worst mics I have ever used. And I don't have any beef with their mics generally. But those are awful. Stick with the -14s.

faninor · « **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2011, 02:07:38 PM »

I ran CSCs for a few years too, right when I started taping. Lots of stack taping those days. They would be suited for it, but I think the CA-14s do have better sound. I wouldn't say the CSCs were garbage, but after I also got CSBs I would almost always run both sets of mics and create a mix. When running only one set of mics I'd almost always go for the CSBs even if the situation seemed like one where cardioids would be better.

In the product description on Core Sound's site they describe the bass response like this: "The bass response is very similar to our Core Sound Binaural microphones' with the bass roll-off filter)." That is... a huge understatement. My CSC recordings had very little bass presence, and increasing the bass with EQ usually sounded unnatural.

tardis71 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 10, 2011, 03:30:15 PM »

I used CSCs from 1997 till 2009...when I got my CA14s....never looked back.
IMHO the CA14s blow them away. Not that you can't pull a good tape with CSC...but
CA14s just sound better, more detail, better top end, Better bass...

acidjack · « **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2011, 05:11:49 PM »

Heck, since they're my own pulls I'm badmouthing, might as well back it up with the evidence. Here are some CSC pulls of mine on the LMA:

http://www.archive.org/details/dplan1999-05-23.dc_acidjack (not sure where I was)

http://www.archive.org/details/superdrag1998-04-02.CSC.flac16 (stack tape)

http://www.archive.org/details/moam1999-05-23.dc_acidjack (stack tape)

I'd say the latter two are *alright* but that's about as good as it gets with those mics.

Belexes · « **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2011, 06:26:57 PM »

Quote from: acidjack on March 10, 2011, 12:41:51 PM

Stick with the -14s.

This.

kingkita · « **Reply #6 on:** March 10, 2011, 07:46:04 PM »

Quote from: acidjack on March 10, 2011, 12:41:51 PM

CSC=garbage CA-14=not garbage. I ran CSCs for a few years. Worst mics I have ever used. And I don't have any beef with their mics generally. But those are awful. Stick with the -14s.

I agree i had them myself Stick with the Ca 14s

Duconlajoie · « **Reply #7 on:** July 14, 2011, 12:59:57 PM »

Sorry for that question but Core Sound Cardioids = Core Sound Stealthy Cardioid. I have found only this one on their site.
And what about the Core Sound Binaural compared to CA14?
Thanks

acidjack · « **Reply #8 on:** July 14, 2011, 02:17:55 PM »

Quote from: Duconlajoie on July 14, 2011, 12:59:57 PM

Sorry for that question but Core Sound Cardioids = Core Sound Stealthy Cardioid. I have found only this one on their site.
And what about the Core Sound Binaural compared to CA14?
Thanks

Anything that has "Coresound" and "cardiod" in the name is garbage.

The Coresound Binaurals (the "CSBs") can be decent in the right situation (there are also pretty broad variances in sound quality among different sets), but a generally correct statement would be that ANY of the omni mics put out by Chris Church (CA-1, CA-11, CAFS, CA-14) are better (not to mention cheaper, not to mention service with a smile, not to mention smaller battery box).

That said, although it was heavy and less flexible, Coresound's battery box was a sturdy design with that locking 3pin XLR. Unfortunately, many of them also had wiring problems....

fmaderjr · « **Reply #9 on:** July 14, 2011, 04:22:51 PM »

Quote from: acidjack on July 14, 2011, 02:17:55 PM

not to mention cheaper, not to mention service with a smile

I certainly did not get that in my 1 experience with Core Sound (he implied I was a lying about not receiving a cable I ordered, although he eventually sent one). Chris Church is a pleasure to deal with if you encounter a problem.

acidjack · « **Reply #10 on:** July 14, 2011, 04:47:36 PM »

Reread my post:

Quote

but a generally correct statement would be that ANY of the omni mics put out by Chris Church (CA-1, CA-11, CAFS, CA-14) are better (not to mention cheaper, not to mention service with a smile, not to mention smaller battery box).

Quote from: fmaderjr on July 14, 2011, 04:22:51 PM

Quote from: acidjack on July 14, 2011, 02:17:55 PM
not to mention cheaper, not to mention service with a smile

I certainly did not get that in my 1 experience with Core Sound (he implied I was a lying about not receiving a cable I ordered, although he eventually sent one). Chris Church is a pleasure to deal with if you encounter a problem.

Duconlajoie · « **Reply #11 on:** July 14, 2011, 05:47:35 PM »

Ok ok, well and what about the Core Sound High End Binaural, still compared to CA's (i don't what difference between them) ? I know dpa have a good reputation but no more.
I saw acidjack you had them, also other viewpoints are welcome.
(Btw you mention PS/2 as Pres/Power, can you give more details on that device pls, you guess what goggle gave me)

newplanet7 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 14, 2011, 07:38:04 PM »

Quote from: Duconlajoie on July 14, 2011, 05:47:35 PM

(Btw you mention PS/2 as Pres/Power, can you give more details on that device pls, you guess what goggle gave me)

Google this for the ps-2 if you are up for it.
deneke ps 2

Duconlajoie · « **Reply #13 on:** July 14, 2011, 07:44:33 PM »

thanks

adrianf74 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 14, 2011, 08:26:29 PM »

These questions have been answered many times; I think we need to develop a sticky.

The CS HEB (DPA 406x) are excellent mics. I've got a few friend who use them and get some stellar recordings in the right scenarios (all mics have this opportunity - I've won some, and I've lost some).

Some background from me.... I've owned the CS Binaurals back in the early-to-mid '90s when I had a Sony TCD-D7 portable DAT deck. At that time, there was nothing in the price range that touched them. A lot has changed in 15 years. When I became a little more serious in taping in the early 2000's, I had bought the Giant Squid Audio Lab omni mics. People here dog them but I did make some excellent recordings with my old Sharp MD. In fact, a few of them were that good that they ended up being pressed on silver CDs (without my knowledge or approval). I then moved to Sound Pro CMC8's (Audio Technica 933 cardioids). They weren't bad. I sold the and run all things Chris Church in my rig.

Back to the topic at hand... As acidjack has already mentioned, anything CS and Cardoid should be avoided; they're pretty craptastic and overpriced for that matter (sorry Len if you're reading this). The CS Binaurals are decent but you could likely pick up both CA-14 omnis, cards and a pre and/or a cheap battery box for about the same as the CS option. I run the CA-14 omnis, cards and the CAFS (freakin' small) omnis for when I need to be a little less obvious. I also have Chris' "ugly" battery box which is the smallest battery box he makes (essentially a 9V clasp compounded with a mini-jack connector on the end. For all of this, I've spent around US$400. This gives me the option of using cards or omnis depending on the situation (indoors, outdoors, close, far away) or using the smaller mics if I need to. It also gives me a pre-amp which is a much nicer tool to have instead of just using a "battery box" as I can adjust the levels on that rather then on my deck (in most cases). So, given the option of CS vs CA at this price point, I'd take the CA option. Yes, you may have to wait a little longer to get your goods but Chris really stands behind what he sells.

Now, you've thrown the CS HEB's into the mix. I've said this before (and Ill say it again) but at $1000, I don't know if they're really worth it if you look at it from an economic standpoint. If you've got a battery box and a CA-14 omni (approximate retail < $200> you're not gonna end up with a recording that's 5x better (i.e., $1000 vs. $200). You get to gloat that you have the mics but I know enough tapers out there who use other mics and leave their DPA's at home to collect dust.

Hopefully this has helped a bit.

swordfish · « **Reply #15 on:** July 15, 2011, 02:34:22 AM »

Quote from: adrianf74 on July 14, 2011, 08:26:29 PM

These questions have been answered many times; I think we need to develop a sticky.

The CS HEB (DPA 406x) are excellent mics. I've got a few friend who use them and get some stellar recordings in the right scenarios (all mics have this opportunity - I've won some, and I've lost some).

Some background from me.... I've owned the CS Binaurals back in the early-to-mid '90s when I had a Sony TCD-D7 portable DAT deck. At that time, there was nothing in the price range that touched them. A lot has changed in 15 years. When I became a little more serious in taping in the early 2000's, I had bought the Giant Squid Audio Lab omni mics. People here dog them but I did make some excellent recordings with my old Sharp MD. In fact, a few of them were that good that they ended up being pressed on silver CDs (without my knowledge or approval). I then moved to Sound Pro CMC8's (Audio Technica 933 cardioids). They weren't bad. I sold the and run all things Chris Church in my rig.

Back to the topic at hand... As acidjack has already mentioned, anything CS and Cardoid should be avoided; they're pretty craptastic and overpriced for that matter (sorry Len if you're reading this). The CS Binaurals are decent but you could likely pick up both CA-14 omnis, cards and a pre and/or a cheap battery box for about the same as the CS option. I run the CA-14 omnis, cards and the CAFS (freakin' small) omnis for when I need to be a little less obvious. I also have Chris' "ugly" battery box which is the smallest battery box he makes (essentially a 9V clasp compounded with a mini-jack connector on the end. For all of this, I've spent around US$400. This gives me the option of using cards or omnis depending on the situation (indoors, outdoors, close, far away) or using the smaller mics if I need to. It also gives me a pre-amp which is a much nicer tool to have instead of just using a "battery box" as I can adjust the levels on that rather then on my deck (in most cases). So, given the option of CS vs CA at this price point, I'd take the CA option. Yes, you may have to wait a little longer to get your goods but Chris really stands behind what he sells.

Now, you've thrown the CS HEB's into the mix. I've said this before (and Ill say it again) but at $1000, I don't know if they're really worth it if you look at it from an economic standpoint. If you've got a battery box and a CA-14 omni (approximate retail < $200> you're not gonna end up with a recording that's 5x better (i.e., $1000 vs. $200). You get to gloat that you have the mics but I know enough tapers out there who use other mics and leave their DPA's at home to collect dust.

Hopefully this has helped a bit.

Just my 2 cents...

I own a pair of DPA 4061 and the CA 14s cards an Ugly BB and a CA 9100 BB from Chris...The best pulls I did lately are those with the CA 14 cards...good for stack recordings but also good for seated/quite shows. Not that easy to stealth with.....

Swordfish

fmaderjr · « **Reply #16 on:** July 15, 2011, 06:33:18 AM »

Quote from: swordfish on July 15, 2011, 02:34:22 AM

The best pulls I did lately are those with the CA 14 cards...good for stack recordings but also good for seated/quite shows. Not that easy to stealth with.....
Swordfish

For those who don't mind using a hat, very easy to stealth with.

Duconlajoie · « **Reply #17 on:** July 15, 2011, 06:44:19 AM »

IMO user experience with arguments is one the most important point so I greatly appreciate all your opinions, it's always very interesting, thanks.

acidjack · « **Reply #18 on:** July 15, 2011, 09:56:48 AM »

To add to the mix, I like the 4061s and I've made some nice recordings with them. Are they 5x better than a comparable CA mic? Well, hard to say. The one comp I've heard of 4060s vs the very inexpensive ($89) CA-1 mic by Chris was pretty close, although the source material was a jazz trio with limited instrumentation, not a super loud rock band, which is what a lot of people using these mics are recording. But keep mind, too, these are omni mics; your original question was about cardiod mics.

I paid $650 for my 4061s used. I didn't think that was a terrible price, and I'm a sucker for the DPA name, I'll admit. But at the time, I was also not familiar with the other higher-end small omnis, such as the Countryman B3 and Nevaton MCE400. The Countrymans cost like $300/pr and the Nevatons can be had for a bit more. the Countrymans don't seem to be that popular even though everyone who has them swears by them; they also need to be terminated in a stereo miniplug by somebody for you (if you don't know how to do it). The Nevatons by all accounts sound awesome, but the fact that they use XLR connectors kind of kills it for me, as that makes them way less stealthy IMHO.

If I were buying again, I'd probably ask a lot more questions about the Countryman B3 and if I could get one of the many capable guys here to terminate it in a miniplug for me, I'd probably go with that.

The Denecke PS/2 is the smallest phantom power supply that can take fullsize XLR inputs that I am aware of. It's just power, not a preamp, so you have to use the recorder's gain. I rarely use it unless I am stealthing, which I don't do much. That power supply is not really relevant to the mic types you're asking about.

adrianf74 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 15, 2011, 06:53:09 PM »

@fmadejr: Hell, I just clip mine to my cap at Gen Admission shows. They're not *THAT* big. Don't like running them the other way so when I'm at "Arts Centres" or other smaller spots I run the CAFS.

@acidjack: I'm with you on the Countrymans as those who have 'em, swear by 'em.

@swordfish: I like the CA-14 cards indoors (stack taping, on a stand right in front of the board or somewhere in between). I like my CA-14 omnis outdoors; I find the cards always sound artificial.

swordfish · « **Reply #20 on:** July 16, 2011, 05:41:42 AM »

Quote from: fmaderjr on July 15, 2011, 06:33:18 AM

Quote from: swordfish on July 15, 2011, 02:34:22 AM
The best pulls I did lately are those with the CA 14 cards...good for stack recordings but also good for seated/quite shows. Not that easy to stealth with.....
Swordfish

For those who don't mind using a hat, very easy to stealth with.

That's what I do but I look kinda stupid with an hat.....hard to use the hat on home turf...so back home I use my 4061's

adrianf74 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 16, 2011, 11:33:28 AM »

Quote from: swordfish on July 16, 2011, 05:41:42 AM

Quote from: fmaderjr on July 15, 2011, 06:33:18 AM
Quote from: swordfish on July 15, 2011, 02:34:22 AM
The best pulls I did lately are those with the CA 14 cards...good for stack recordings but also good for seated/quite shows. Not that easy to stealth with.....
Swordfish

For those who don't mind using a hat, very easy to stealth with.

That's what I do but I look kinda stupid with an hat.....hard to use the hat on home turf...so back home I use my 4061's

What looks even more stupid when wearing a hat is my dead rats on the CA-14's but... if I'm outdoors, it has to be done (Toronto is a windy place wherever they hold these outdoor shows).

fmaderjr · « **Reply #22 on:** July 16, 2011, 12:15:39 PM »

Quote from: adrianf74 on July 14, 2011, 08:26:29 PM

You get to gloat that you have the mics but I know enough tapers out there who use other mics and leave their DPA's at home to collect dust.

Count me in this group. MY DPA 4060's are great mics, but I generally prefer cards and usually wind up recording with my CA-14 cards or Franken Nak cards.

Plus if I wanted to buy DPA 4060's or 4061's, I wouldn't get the CoreSound versions due to the large battery box, fairly common reports of the wiring going bad well before its time, and less than stellar customer service.

swordfish · « **Reply #23 on:** July 17, 2011, 11:30:05 AM »

Quote from: fmaderjr on July 16, 2011, 12:15:39 PM

Quote from: adrianf74 on July 14, 2011, 08:26:29 PM
You get to gloat that you have the mics but I know enough tapers out there who use other mics and leave their DPA's at home to collect dust.

Count me in this group. MY DPA 4060's are great mics, but I generally prefer cards and usually wind up recording with my CA-14 cards or Franken Nak cards.

Plus if I wanted to buy DPA 4060's or 4061's, I wouldn't get the CoreSound versions due to the large battery box, fairly common reports of the wiring going bad well before its time, and less than stellar customer service.

Chris(Church Audio) did the Jumper cable to 1/8 for me. Just to ya'll know

acidjack · « **Reply #24 on:** July 17, 2011, 12:59:04 PM »

Quote from: fmaderjr on July 16, 2011, 12:15:39 PM

Quote from: adrianf74 on July 14, 2011, 08:26:29 PM
You get to gloat that you have the mics but I know enough tapers out there who use other mics and leave their DPA's at home to collect dust.

Count me in this group. MY DPA 4060's are great mics, but I generally prefer cards and usually wind up recording with my CA-14 cards or Franken Nak cards.

Plus if I wanted to buy DPA 4060's or 4061's, I wouldn't get the CoreSound versions due to the large battery box, fairly common reports of the wiring going bad well before its time, and less than stellar customer service.

Agree. Mine was a Coresound set and the wiring was bad when I got it. Their BB setup is a mixed bag for me. The plus side is, that 3-pin mini-xlr locking connector is very rugged... but it is bigger. The wiring issues are the bigger problem IMHO. I had Chris re-terminate mine to a stereo miniplug recently.

And yeah, out of my rigs, my 4061s do collect dust a lot of the time, but they're also not the best mics I own. It's tougher when you're deciding between them and a less-than-premium cardiod like an AT853. They'll best the 853s every time in an ideal situation.... but situations aren't always ideal... That said, tomorrow I'm posting two shows of the same artist - one recorded up front with 853s in a hat, one recorded in the back of the room with 4061s mounted against the board. The 4061s absolutely smoke the ATs, no question... but I had a perfect crowd.

acidjack · « **Reply #25 on:** July 18, 2011, 06:54:47 AM »

In case anyone cares, a not terribly accurate (given different conditions, venues, etc), same artist, two recordings, one with 4061s and one with AT 853 cardiods up close:

http://www.nyctaper.com/?p=6622

Duconlajoie · « **Reply #26 on:** July 18, 2011, 08:12:17 AM »

Still interesting, thanks. The wiring issues about core sound seem to occur often in different threads. But by wiring, i didn't find any satisfying translation, you mean cables, quality of soldering/welding, plug or something else?

acidjack · « **Reply #27 on:** July 18, 2011, 08:28:20 AM »

Quote from: Duconlajoie on July 18, 2011, 08:12:17 AM

Still interesting, thanks. The wiring issues about core sound seem to occur often in different threads. But by wiring, i didn't find any satisfying translation, you mean cables, quality of soldering/welding, plug or something else?

The internal wiring in the battery boxes tends to come loose, causing shorts. For example, when I got mine, the mics were only outputting mono, with the signal of only the right mic appearing on both channels.

Duconlajoie · « **Reply #28 on:** July 19, 2011, 07:17:57 PM »

A very bad work indeed. For that price it's a shame, specially when you pretend to sell high quality !!!

BlindGuyEars · « **Reply #29 on:** August 09, 2011, 03:10:14 PM »

I started off with CSB's in the 90's and got some great shows with them, and a sharp minidisc recorder - mt831. Ah the memories.

But, the customer service, or lack of it, is what moved me on to other and better products. The mini-xlr on the CSB's finally went bad, and returning things to Len, I heard nothing for 13 weeks. I had to start yelling publicly in various forums to even get a response from him, and eventually, my returned mics.

Don't get me going on the first versions of the MIC2496 preamp either! My first warning should have been "kilocycles per second KSS" in specifications on his site. *LOL* When people start reinventing technical terminology ... watch out.

Anyway, my vote is for CA14's and I don't even own them yet!

I can speak to the great build quality and sound of Chris's preamps though.

Gutbucket · « **Reply #30 on:** August 09, 2011, 04:01:31 PM »

Quote from: BlindGuyEars on August 09, 2011, 03:10:14 PM

"kilocycles per second KSS" in specifications on his site. *LOL* When people start reinventing technical terminology ... watch out.

That's not reinventing, it's simply old-school, man. Counting frequencies in units of Hertz (Hz) didn't come into fashion until the 70's, before then everyone used Cycles Per Second (CPS). Science marches on and although Pluto may be stripped of true planet status, the good German physicist who did pioneering magnetics work (at least I think that's what Hertz contributed) now get's his due.

It's the same unit, just a different name. Hz=cps; kHz= kcps; etc.

Ekib · « **Reply #31 on:** January 27, 2014, 06:39:10 AM »

Anyone here who records shows with the church audio CA-14's ?
I'd prefer hearing metal , but other music would do too .
Would like to hear some sound clips to compare with my core sound's I am using .

I'd appreciate if someone can sent me some clips by wetransfer . Please sent me a PM . Thanks !

Than at least it will give me some idea .

George · « **Reply #32 on:** January 27, 2014, 08:19:19 AM »

Darktrain wired my countryman B3's. However, since I purchased the at853 subcards, I haven't touched the B3's.

ravingandrooling · « **Reply #33 on:** January 27, 2014, 08:26:54 AM »

Quote from: Ekib on January 27, 2014, 06:39:10 AM

Anyone here who records shows with the church audio CA-14's ?
I'd prefer hearing metal , but other music would do too .
Would like to hear some sound clips to compare with my core sound's I am using .

I'd appreciate if someone can sent me some clips by wetransfer . Please sent me a PM . Thanks !

Than at least it will give me some idea .

If anyone else is curious about the CA14 cards, here is a link to some mp3 samples of various shows I captured with them this past year. Billy Cobham, Steve Hackett, Yes, Nektar and Zombi. CA14 - Ugly BB - Sony M10.

http://we.tl/9capeqyyHs

Ekib · « **Reply #34 on:** January 27, 2014, 11:10:39 AM »

Are the 14's the best cardioid's Church have ?

adrianf74 · « **Reply #35 on:** January 28, 2014, 12:05:11 PM »

Why not ask Chris directly? I'm sure he'll be able to help you. I'd sooner buy CA-14's over CSC's (as would most).

TimSmith · « **Reply #36 on:** January 29, 2014, 03:25:27 AM »

Quote from: Ekib on January 27, 2014, 11:10:39 AM

Are the 14's the best cardioid's Church have ?

Here's a direct quote from CA-man himself (I can't remember where it was posted):

Quote

The ca-11 omni are the flattest mics I make right now. And in some situations thats what you want. these capsules do not remove from the body. I can under special request make a set that will work with cards and omni caps but they must be ordered at the same time. The threads are slightly different on these capsules.

The ca-14 omni are not as flat but still sound good. They seem to have slightly less bottom end than the ca-11 omni II does. In some situations thats a good thing.

The ca-14 card is not a very flat mic but sounds good for super close stack taping but its slightly harder to aim. If you are in a very loud situation where the sound feild is all around you. The ca-14 card is a good choice.

The ca-11 card II is slightly flatter not quite as flat on the bottom end as the ca-14 card but the top end is slightly sweeter sounding on the ca-11 card.
The ca-11 is a good choice when you have the ability to aim at the sound source like for croakie mounts.. I really like these when they are on ether side of the head.

When I posted and said the ca-11 II omni was my best mic I was speaking of the flatness for me being a audio geek I have always been trying to get a flatter sounding mic. But again every single situation is different. I usually recommend mics based on what my customers are doing at the time they place an order. I just have alot of experience with my own mics obviously I make them. So If anyone has any doubts always send me a quick email and I will be glad to answer questions about my gear and where and when would be the best time to use it.

I cant obviously answer questions about what recorder setting to use.. Or what gain settings to use. I can only speak in general terms because I don't know how loud your concert is.. But I can give you good advice on placement on the body. Like any mics the higher on your body the better they will sound all of my mics have been designed to sound better with a boundary * your head * between them. The bigger the boundary the better your left right stereo separation will be.

Church-Audio · « **Reply #37 on:** January 29, 2014, 06:53:43 PM »

Quote from: Ekib on January 27, 2014, 11:10:39 AM

Are the 14's the best cardioid's Church have ?

they are the best in terms of extended frequency response but in terms of small vrs quality the ca11is pretty hard to beat.