Topic: Flattest Low Pro Omni's ?

[beatkilla]

Sure this has been discussed man y times but i can't find the thread?

Which of the low pro omni's are the flattest?

CSB
DPA
Sonics
etc.   

[SmokinJoe]

The 4061's are known to have that significant presence hump. I've also used CSB's and DSM's...  referring to the "regular" CSB's (not the low priced, or the high end) they seem pretty damn flat.  Someday I ought to put my Earthworks omnis against the CSBs and DSM's... because I feel pretty sure the Earthworks are flat.

[adrianf74]

The 4061's are known to have that significant presence hump. I've also used CSB's and DSM's...  referring to the "regular" CSB's (not the low priced, or the high end) they seem pretty damn flat.  Someday I ought to put my Earthworks omnis against the CSBs and DSM's... because I feel pretty sure the Earthworks are flat.

+1.  I tried the 4061's but didn't like the "flavour" added by the bump.  I've since switched to Countryman Associates B3's but haven't had a chance to run mine yet due to some personal circumstances which suck. 

I've listened to some samples by a few other tapers who use the B3 and they seem better to my ears; they are flatter and have a different "flavour" of sound (if you look at the specs on the sales sheet, these mics are pretty damn flat).  There are several others on the board who run the B3's as well because they didn't like the 4061's.  Size of the capsule is on par with the 4061's although the cable is a little thicker.  I always found the 4061's a little "bright" to my ears (some people prefer this but not I).

[audBall]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=143514

[newplanet7]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=143514

Flatter than your 6th grade GF. Those are nice.
Modular mics?

[John Willett]

If you want a sub-miniature microphone, my top three are the DPA 4060, Sennheiser MKE 1 and Sennheiser MKE 2.  However, all these do have a high frequency presence boost (presumably to aid clarity when being body-worn as they were designed for).  However, as the DPA 4060 response is only shown with the small and large caps attached, it may be the flattest with the cap completely removed (you will probably have to check this with DPA.

If you can go larger, the Sennheiser MKH 20 and Gefell M221 have very flat frequency responses.

MKH 20 (the dotted line shows the response with the diffuse field switch in the "on" position:-


Attached below is the response curve of the Gefell M221 - as this is not on-line as a picture, this is a screenshot from a PDF.

[aaronji]

If you want a sub-miniature microphone, my top three are the DPA 4060, Sennheiser MKE 1 and Sennheiser MKE 2.  However, all these do have a high frequency presence boost (presumably to aid clarity when being body-worn as they were designed for).  However, as the DPA 4060 response is only shown with the small and large caps attached, it may be the flattest with the cap completely removed (you will probably have to check this with DPA.

Here is the frequency response curve for the 4060 with no grid.  Courtesy of Gutbucket (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147921.msg1894491#msg1894491)...

[John Willett]

Gefell have now put up the response curves of the M221 on the website.

So here is the high definition version:-




This is the standard response - the M221 comes supplied complete with two frequency pressure balls for diffuse field use

[SmokinJoe]

The cheap panasonic caps are shown with a very flat line curve.  Is it real?  I don't know.  I think that's what CSB's are made from, but I think they are modded to give them some presence, just not as much as the DPA's.

Depending on what you are doing, the flattest omnis available may not actually tickle your fancy.  Earthworks omnis are generally regarded as being flat, and accurate.  I have a set I have used a few times, not enough to claim expertise, but enough to get a real life lesson in the difference between "free field" and "diffuse field" omnis.  I'm not going to explain those terms, I encourage you to google them, but that concept *IS* important to us tapers.

Once you get off at a distance the high frequencies tend to drop off faster than the lows, and flat "free field" mics sound "bland", not necessarily muddy, but without the crystal clarity you might expect.  Here is a moe tape I recorded from the sweet spot at an outdoor show.  In post I rolled off the bass at around 80hz, and did a high shelf of about +3db from 4k on up, and I like the results.  http://archive.org/details/moe2012-06-21.tc25.flac16f  Without that EQ, I considered the raw tape embarrassing to call my own.  Here is a tape I made with the mics stage lip.  It has no EQ and in that situation I didn't use any, http://archive.org/details/dubapoc2012-07-27.tc25.flac16f

I had AKG CK62 caps, which are probably fairly flat, and I thought the tapes sounded bland and lifeless... so I sold them and moved onto the Earthworks, which are pretty much the same... at which point I learned I couldn't ignore the whole "free field" versus "diffuse field" concept.  You need to choose mics that are suitable for your situation, or be prepared to EQ.  That's my 2 cents worth.

Once you have pondered all this a bit... consider the Schoeps line of omni caps, MK2 which is flat, and the MK2S and MK2H that have a moderate presence peak, and the MK3 that has perhaps too much.  Schoeps engineers aren't dummies.  They make the different ones available because they have a function.

[adrianf74]

As for the B3's...

[bryonsos]

As for the B3's...

X2 on the B3s, especially with the flat grid. To my ears, they sound as good or better than the Euro options mentioned, especially if you consider the cost. In other words, there is no way that those mics sound 5-10X better than the B3s.

[Chuck]

Gefell have now put up the response curves of the M221 on the website.

So here is the high definition version:-




This is the standard response - the M221 comes supplied complete with two frequency pressure balls for diffuse field use

That's not flat! What's that .6db ripple above 10k? lol...

[adrianf74]

As for the B3's...

X2 on the B3s, especially with the flat grid. To my ears, they sound as good or better than the Euro options mentioned, especially if you consider the cost. In other words, there is no way that those mics sound 5-10X better than the B3s.

The cost was an added bonus for me.  In Canada, the mics cost me around $350 after sales tax (13%) through an authorized reseller.  Termination was a few dollars more plus tax (again) (plus shipping both ways) but well worth every dollar.   Hoping to try them out this weekend but the B3 is very natural, flat, sounding mic.   

I've run man mics over the years: Core Sound Binaurals in the mid '90s > Squidly Diddly omnis > AT-933/c (Sound Pros in the early 2000's) > CAFS-Omnis > CA-14 Omnis/Cards > DPA 4061 > Countryman B3.  I think I have enough experience in "low-pro" gear to make a statement.  I preferred the sound of the CA-14's to the DPA 4061's but preferred the size of the 4061's to the CAFS and the CA-14's.   The B3, IMHO, is a worthy competitor to the CA-14 for "the sound" I like.  I always used to comment that the DPA 4061's (at 7-8x the price of the CA-14's) are not 7-8x better sounding.  It all comes down to form factor and the "flavour" of the sound.

[Gutbucket]

I need to get some flat grids to try on my B3s.

I only have the +4dB bright grids for them and the recordings I've made using them are brighter and less smooth sounding to my ear than DPA 4060/4061 using the short grids.  More importantly, I have far more difficulty EQing those +4 grid B3 recordings to get things to sound the way I want than I do with 4060/61 recordings.  Perhaps the flat grids will allow me to do that.  If so I'll be thrilled.  However, at this point I'm content spending 2.5 to 3x more for the DPAs.  Well worth it to get the results I want. 

You need to choose mics that are suitable for your situation, or be prepared to EQ.  That's my 2 cents worth.

Truth!

I'll go farther- it's not either/or but both!

[edit- I've also tried the B3s with no grids, hoping to eliminate grid-caused boost resonance issues, but had similar EQ difficulties and that moved getting flat grids for them to the back burner]

[bryonsos]

I need to get some flat grids to try on my B3s.

I only have the +4dB bright grids for them and the recordings I've made using them are brighter and less smooth sounding to my ear than DPA 4060/4061 using the short grids.  More importantly, I have far more difficulty EQing those +4 grid B3 recordings to get things to sound the way I want than I do with 4060/61 recordings.  Perhaps the flat grids will allow me to do that.  If so I'll be thrilled.  However, at this point I'm content spending 2.5 to 3x more for the DPAs.  Well worth it to get the results I want. 

You need to choose mics that are suitable for your situation, or be prepared to EQ.  That's my 2 cents worth.

Truth!

I'll go farther- it's not either/or but both!

[edit- I've also tried the B3s with no grids, hoping to eliminate grid-caused boost resonance issues, but had similar EQ difficulties and that moved getting flat grids for them to the back burner]

This was not a  job obviously, but I knew there would be a bunch of tapers there so I thought I'd play with my new toys. Openly taped, on an omni bar. I was pleased.

http://archive.org/details/furthur2012-07-11.bryonsos