Topic: Audio Technica AT 853 RX or Core Sound Binaurals opinions or suggestions please

[schoff]

Any opinions on these two sets of microphones would be greatly appreciated. I would be matching up both mic sets with a matching battery box and base roll off switch. If anybody has any other suggestions for mics in and around the same price range for a small stealth rig. Feel free to give me your suggestions.

Thanks

Schoff

[jeromejello]

i would go for the AT 853s  - i think they sound better and they offer switchable caps
/fluff

[madman]

Depends on what you want to accomplish.  I've owned both; I had the 853s for a short time but didn't know about the 3-wire battery packs at the time, so any loud venue resulted in distorted recordings.  The CSBs were good because they were able to handle higher SPLs without distortion and were smaller and easier to conceal.  They didn't sound as good as the 853s, though (I had card caps in there) and Len at Core Sound is not a personable guy.  There are some other choices out there now like Giant Squid and Church Audio, you might want to do a search about those mics on here.  They seem to be more reasonably priced than the Core Sound stuff and I haven't heard anything bad about customer service from either company. 

[schoff]

This is what I`m after; thanks for the imput guys

[jcrab66]

i've had both, go with the 853's, they are a bit more versatile than the csb's although both are capable of making some nice recordings

[schoff]

Somthing which does concern me however is with is how easy is it to shortern the cabel length as 25`is a little excessive for a stealth rig.
(Mind you, there is a place in Liverpool which may be able to help me out)

[Myco]

The AT853's have a wider frequency range also. The Soundprofessionals have diagram showing the patterns of both if your interested. The AT853's might distort with louder recordings in some cases, but if you use the battery box, or if you have them phantom modded you'll get great results. The coresounds won't didtort maybe because they record a more narrow range than other mics do, you lose some of the highs & lows.

[spyder9]

Depends on what you want to accomplish.  I've owned both; I had the 853s for a short time but didn't know about the 3-wire battery packs at the time, so any loud venue resulted in distorted recordings.  The CSBs were good because they were able to handle higher SPLs without distortion and were smaller and easier to conceal.  They didn't sound as good as the 853s, though (I had card caps in there) and Len at Core Sound is not a personable guy.  There are some other choices out there now like Giant Squid and Church Audio, you might want to do a search about those mics on here.  They seem to be more reasonably priced than the Core Sound stuff and I haven't heard anything bad about customer service from either company. 

Are you talking about the regular 853As?  They have 1/8 connection like the CSBs and run on standard 9V battery power.  The 853RXs are phantom powered.  Never heard of anyone running the RXs with a 3-wire battery pack.  You need a separate phantom box like the Denecke PS2 or a preamp w/ phantom power like the Sound Devices MP2 or Mixpre, to power the RXs. 

Any hoot, definitely get the 853RXs.  Phantom power is king.  Better SPL handling, better dynamic range.  I recorded the Black Crowes last year in a tiny venue.  The 853RXs took a full shot from the head-level PA system and had no distortion or issues in my recording (I can't say the same for my ears  ).  And everyone knows how loud the Crowes can be.  No brainer, 853RX over the CSBs all day long. 

As far as 853As vs CSB, I have not compared them.  But I'd have to give the 853As the edge because of multiple caps. .

Hope that helps.  Good luck!   

[madman]

Are you talking about the regular 853As?  They have 1/8 connection like the CSBs and run on standard 9V battery power.  The 853RXs are phantom powered.  Never heard of anyone running the RXs with a 3-wire battery pack.  You need a separate phantom box like the Denecke PS2 or a preamp w/ phantom power like the Sound Devices MP2 or Mixpre, to power the RXs. 

Yea, I wasn't talking about the rxs, but I assumed they are identical other than phantom powe.  I was just saying the reason I didn't like them is that they distorted, which is obviously not a concern for him if he uses phantom.

[spyder9]

Are you talking about the regular 853As?  They have 1/8 connection like the CSBs and run on standard 9V battery power.  The 853RXs are phantom powered.  Never heard of anyone running the RXs with a 3-wire battery pack.  You need a separate phantom box like the Denecke PS2 or a preamp w/ phantom power like the Sound Devices MP2 or Mixpre, to power the RXs. 

Yea, I wasn't talking about the rxs, but I assumed they are identical other than phantom powe.  I was just saying the reason I didn't like them is that they distorted, which is obviously not a concern for him if he uses phantom.

+T   

[poorlyconditioned]

The AT853's have a wider frequency range also. The Soundprofessionals have diagram showing the patterns of both if your interested. The AT853's might distort with louder recordings in some cases, but if you use the battery box, or if you have them phantom modded you'll get great results. The coresounds won't didtort maybe because they record a more narrow range than other mics do, you lose some of the highs & lows.

Correction/clarification: CoreSound do not distort becuase they are using a *3 wire* battery box!  It is different than the one Sanjay and I made (and has different connectors), but that is why it does not distort.

OK, so you want to get AT853, probably from Soundprofessionals.  Those mics will sound great.

I would try them with a regular batt. box first.  If you get too loud, then get a 3-wire battery box.  I'm not making boxes at the moment, and I think Sanjay has dropped out of the game for a bit.  Perhaps Church can make you one?  Or, get a battery box + pre from Church.

Either way, you probably want the "phantom power mod" from SoundProfessionals.  This is where he puts a miniXLR 3-pin connector on each mic.  These *should* plug into Church's preamp/battery box.

  Richard

[schoff]

Ok sitting over here getting my head round this lot.

if I want to run the 853 RX mics I would feed these into either a Denecke PS2 and then into the microtracker (  OR

run the 853 RX mics into a preamp with Phantom power such as the Sound Devices MixPre and from there into the microtracker

With the second setup would I need a separate battery box for the mics? If not this would
be on the way to fulfilling my stealth requirements

thanks for the help

[madman]

If you run the rx's into a pre w/phantom, you won't need a power source.  If you have the cash, you might as well get a pre to start with since you will upgrade anyway.  We all do it, it's a sickness and we need help.  The 853s are really great mics and as another poster mentioned you can always get other caps to expand the microphones for different situations.  I have DPA 4061s and love them, but I'm always toying with the thought of buying 853s or some other cards to use in bad rooms. 

[Javier Cinakowski]

The Microphone Madness Sennheiser MKE40s sound very nice and will absolutly not distort, even if you just plug them directly into a Plug In Power Recorder.  They have a 138SPL rating with 3v PIP.   With 9v you can record a jet engine from 2".

[Sparge Master]

I won a pair of 853s > mp-2 and love the combo. I can get my gear in but I hate standing around in long lines with my junk next to my junk.

[madman]

With 9v you can record a jet engine from 2".

What kind of playback system you using for that 

[Zaphod]

The Microphone Madness Sennheiser MKE40s sound very nice and will absolutly not distort, even if you just plug them directly into a Plug In Power Recorder.  They have a 138SPL rating with 3v PIP.   With 9v you can record a jet engine from 2".

The mics might not distort but I bet if you were only using plug in power from the JB3 or an MD I bet the internal pre would most definetly distort if the source was loud enough.

[Zaphod]

I won a pair of 853s > mp-2 and love the combo.

Another vote here going for the AT853>MP2 combo sounds great!

[Sparge Master]

I won a pair of 853s > mp-2 and love the combo.

Another vote here going for the AT853>MP2 combo sounds great!

It sounds better with deschuttes > mouth combo

[Zaphod]

I won a pair of 853s > mp-2 and love the combo.

Another vote here going for the AT853>MP2 combo sounds great!

It sounds better with deschuttes > mouth combo

  goddamn right +T!

[schoff]

If you run the rx's into a pre w/phantom, you won't need a power source.  If you have the cash, you might as well get a pre to start with since you will upgrade anyway.  We all do it, it's a sickness and we need help.

There are a couple of issues which are holding me back from the 853 RX`s

1. Cable: namely shortening. Presumably as soon as you cut the cable then you would invalidate the guarantee and secondary looking at illustrations on the net I`m getting the impression these cables are a lot thicker than the average 3-5 mm cable you might find on an I-pod or mini-disc headphone cable. As one of the setups I am playing with includes attaching them to a set of glasses and running the wires along the frame and down into my top pocket a thicker wire running down my neck might attract too much attention in medium to large venues

However I do like windorabug`s suggestion of a set of  Sennheiser MKE40s purly for their stealth qualities.

As for preamps the  Sound Devices MixPre is a great piece of kit but getting something approxametly the size of two cassette tapes it past security of a venue with security might prove to be problematic(Those bouncers in Glasgow, Manchester and London can be very scary people)

The Church preamps look great but I`m looking for something with led indicators to warn me of clipping etc. I will continue following the small stealth preamp thread in the Pre`s, A/D and Processors forum. though any suggestions as usual would be appreciated over here. Would the fact that I`m going to be using a M Audio Micro Tracker 24/96 (which comes complete with phantom power)  as my storage device have any bearing on the discussion?

Once again, thanks everybody for your time and imput

Schoff

[cmoorevt]

There are a couple of issues which are holding me back from the 853 RX`s

1. Cable: namely shortening. Presumably as soon as you cut the cable then you would invalidate the guarantee and secondary looking at illustrations on the net I`m getting the impression these cables are a lot thicker than the average 3-5 mm cable you might find on an I-pod or mini-disc headphone cable. As one of the setups I am playing with includes attaching them to a set of glasses and running the wires along the frame and down into my top pocket a thicker wire running down my neck might attract too much attention in medium to large venues

Schoff

Keeping in mind that I have never done it, the cable shortening seems quite easy.  AT even includes instructions on how to do it.  Look at the center, bottom of page one of the spec sheet.

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/b95ae65cb5585585/index.html

[jeromejello]

i run my AT853's in croakies on sunglasses and have no issues.... also the rx version (which is P48 ONLY) is the easiest one to modify the lenght.  it is a matter of no solder, just screwing the bare leads to the terminals inside the AT8531 adapters.  it does NOT void the warrantee when you shorten the leads (however, a retailer might not accept the return)

hope it helps

TEAM AT BABY! 

[corsair]

The Microphone Madness Sennheiser MKE40s sound very nice and will absolutly not distort, even if you just plug them directly into a Plug In Power Recorder.  They have a 138SPL rating with 3v PIP.   With 9v you can record a jet engine from 2".

Not sure if its jet engine... but with normal power, it shld get 143SPL... according to sennheiser specs..

[jcrab66]

Somthing which does concern me however is with is how easy is it to shortern the cabel length as 25`is a little excessive for a stealth rig.

its very simple to shorten the cable length, you can do it yourself with minimal effort. You just cut the cable to the length you want and strip a bit of wire and screw em into the modules. They are not solder connections although I did tin my shield and wires before hooking up...

[schoff]

well with your informed observations it looks as if I`m going to end up with a pair of the 853`s.

easy to adapt and a small 3.2 mm diameter cable (which was another of my other concerns) they do look good

BTW. looking at the specs of your stealth rig jcrab66 it looks as if I have almost recreated the same setup

[jcrab66]

BTW. looking at the specs of your stealth rig jcrab66 it looks as if I have almost recreated the same setup

then you wont be disappointed, happy taping!

[madman]

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on a clipping light on a pre.  I know Chris posted elsewhere about why these generally aren't that useful, but I've been taping for years and have always relied on my levels on my recorders.  After awhile, you get a feeling for each venue that you'll tape in and will know what settings to go in there with.  I've had my MD levels show that I was clipping, but never had any distortion from that.  I just don't run as hot anymore and don't have to worry.  Experience and watching your levels are much more useful than a clip light, IMHO. 

Sounds like you decided on mics, you'll be happy w/them.

[schoff]

So having just ordered my 853 RX`s at the very reasonably $136.42 it only leaves me to thank everybody for their input and opinions.

Thanks

Schoff

http://www.fullcompass.com/products/pages/SKU--10074/index.html

[Sparge Master]

Relax; have a brew. You will like the mics; I do.

[spyder9]

So having just ordered my 853 RX`s at the very reasonably $136.42 it only leaves me to thank everybody for their input and opinions.

Thanks

Schoff

http://www.fullcompass.com/products/pages/SKU--10074/index.html

Congrats!  You'll like these mics. I'm very happy with mine.  There's a couple of MP2s in the Yard for sale if you're interested.

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

I would not call soldering an end onto a cable a "mod" the reason why the CS mics do not distort is simple they use a linkwitz type mod this mod, IMO reduces bass. This is a similar mod but not quite the same as what earthworks do to the panasonic 55 capsule they use in the cardioid mics. I like the AT853 but for the price I also like my Cardioid mics for $129.99 a pair they sound great PM me if you want a recording sample. If you want to go with the SP AT mics give me a shout and I will make you one of my 3 wire preamps, this preamp gives you 00- TO 20db of undistorted gain at 20hz to 90khz FLAT with a bass roll off at 80 switchable. The price is $149.99 for the preamp with the three wire inputs. here is a picture.

Chris Church
 

The AT853's have a wider frequency range also. The Soundprofessionals have diagram showing the patterns of both if your interested. The AT853's might distort with louder recordings in some cases, but if you use the battery box, or if you have them phantom modded you'll get great results. The coresounds won't didtort maybe because they record a more narrow range than other mics do, you lose some of the highs & lows.

Correction/clarification: CoreSound do not distort becuase they are using a *3 wire* battery box!  It is different than the one Sanjay and I made (and has different connectors), but that is why it does not distort.

OK, so you want to get AT853, probably from Soundprofessionals.  Those mics will sound great.

I would try them with a regular batt. box first.  If you get too loud, then get a 3-wire battery box.  I'm not making boxes at the moment, and I think Sanjay has dropped out of the game for a bit.  Perhaps Church can make you one?  Or, get a battery box + pre from Church.

Either way, you probably want the "phantom power mod" from SoundProfessionals.  This is where he puts a miniXLR 3-pin connector on each mic.  These *should* plug into Church's preamp/battery box.

  Richard

[dano420]

I also run the At853rx > mp-2 and they are the two pieces of gear I will never give up.

[guysonic]

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on a clipping light on a pre.  I know Chris posted elsewhere about why these generally aren't that useful, but I've been taping for years and have always relied on my levels on my recorders.  After awhile, you get a feeling for each venue that you'll tape in and will know what settings to go in there with.  I've had my MD levels show that I was clipping, but never had any distortion from that.  I just don't run as hot anymore and don't have to worry.  Experience and watching your levels are much more useful than a clip light, IMHO. 

Sounds like you decided on mics, you'll be happy w/them.

VU indicators usually show LINE level signals, but do not indicate when first mic (preamp) stage is overdriven to clip distort.  Good to remember the first mic stage is BEFORE the REC level adjustment that VU meter monitors, so (actually a gain) control of first stage 'level' is limited to 'mic attenuation' switch; mostly with only two (0dB/-20dB) choice on minidecks if available at all.  In other words, first stage can be overdriven, and you will adjust REC level so VU reads "not clipping," but preamplifier overload-distorted sound is being recorded regardless. 

Fast, short duration mic preamplifier clip distortions usually go unheard or unrecognized, but are clearly visible in the waveforms using editing programs like CEP/Adobe Audition. 

I do not believe most tapers desire NOT to know when clip distortions happen or are likely, even if the clips were not easily heard.

Point is, accurate/well designed mic preamp clip (or near clip) LED indicator has proven most useful in keeping the first stage from overloads, whether audible or not. 

Just because some or most preamps have poorly designed clip indicators does not downplay the need for such features.   

Anyway, this is some of the design considerations of my own mini preamps, all with (very useful) -3 dB near clip LED.

[jhirte]

I got my 853rx's the other day. Shortened the cables last night to about 7'. Took about 30minutes. I also tinned the leads after shortening.

I also will be running Jcrabb66's MP2 tonight with them... before he has run it. muhuwhahahaah new toys rule.

My plan when I am not mooching the mp2 is to run direct to Microtrack. I'm gonna build some XLR -> 1/4" TRS jacks in the next couple days here.. 

[poorlyconditioned]

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on a clipping light on a pre.  I know Chris posted elsewhere about why these generally aren't that useful, but I've been taping for years and have always relied on my levels on my recorders.  After awhile, you get a feeling for each venue that you'll tape in and will know what settings to go in there with.  I've had my MD levels show that I was clipping, but never had any distortion from that.  I just don't run as hot anymore and don't have to worry.  Experience and watching your levels are much more useful than a clip light, IMHO. 

Sounds like you decided on mics, you'll be happy w/them.

VU indicators usually show LINE level signals, but do not indicate when first mic (preamp) stage is overdriven to clip distort.  Good to remember the first mic stage is BEFORE the REC level adjustment that VU meter monitors, so (actually a gain) control of first stage 'level' is limited to 'mic attenuation' switch; mostly with only two (0dB/-20dB) choice on minidecks if available at all.  In other words, first stage can be overdriven, and you will adjust REC level so VU reads "not clipping," but preamplifier overload-distorted sound is being recorded regardless. 

Fast, short duration mic preamplifier clip distortions usually go unheard or unrecognized, but are clearly visible in the waveforms using editing programs like CEP/Adobe Audition. 

I do not believe most tapers desire NOT to know when clip distortions happen or are likely, even if the clips were not easily heard.

Point is, accurate/well designed mic preamp clip (or near clip) LED indicator has proven most useful in keeping the first stage from overloads, whether audible or not. 

Just because some or most preamps have poorly designed clip indicators does not downplay the need for such features.   

Anyway, this is some of the design considerations of my own mini preamps, all with (very useful) -3 dB near clip LED.

Yep, good explanation. 

This is called "brick wall" distortion.  Your levels look fine, but it still distorts.  Common on early minidisc recorders with "hot" electret condenser mic inputs.  The newer MD (and all HiMD models) have a "MIC SENS" item in the menu.  This reduces the mic pre gain, probably by -20dB but I'm not sure.  Anyway, I use either LO on MIC SENS or LINE IN if it is really loud.  In both cases the recorder sounds great, and you have real analog gain control and nice metering.

BTW, I have heard one report that the MIC input on the Edirol R1 recorder has brickwall distortion.  The solution here is to either use LINE IN or to build an external attenuator (eg. -10 or -20dB) to put in front of the MIC input.  I have not used this myself though.  And I'm not about to pay $400 for a piece of gear that does not solve this problem for me like later generation MDs already do.

  Richard

[jhirte]

853rx -> MP2 = nice!