Topic: Running Omnis???

[cgrooves]

Split omnis outdoors is my favorite.  Even a 12" split on the same stand isn't bad.  I've only tried the Healy method once (indoors at stage lip) and wasn't happy. 

[Cheesecadet]

Welll...ran the omnis today for the first time and the result...drumroll please.....AWESOME!!!  I taped a local San Diego singer/songwriter at a benefit show down in Solana Beach at Fletcher Cove Park.  I ran the mics from one stand like I mentioned in an earlier post.  The mics were split 14" (inches) @ 180*.  8' From stage and 6' High - center.

The recording is almost flawless...there was a brief period (4 Min.) of gusty winds that were really picked up my the mics.  Luckily most of this occurred in between tunes, when he was bringing a guest up to perform with him and getting set up.  I can fix that in post so no big deal....bur overall I am VERY pleased with the omnis and will definitely run them again.

This show was at the beach, so I knew there would be a chance of some harsh wind...I can just imagine what these babies will be like on a calm day...I can't wait for my next opportunity.

Thanks to all who gave me some advice. 

I just wish I would have brought my board because the waves were great too!

Ryan in CA

[rowjimmytour]

I really liked using a J-disc w/ my C4's and pointed them at the stacks. Also it was pretty easy to make dead rat skins for my C4's so you might want to check into this and +t for your first omni recording.
Peace

[Tim]

the wind you hear is the low frequency rumbling, omni's are flat very far down and will shake your walls

they are less prone to actual wind phasing though and are an excellent choice in the wind, just flip on the HPF

[goodcooker]

the wind you hear is the low frequency rumbling, omni's are flat very far down and will shake your walls

they are less prone to actual wind phasing though and are an excellent choice in the wind, just flip on the HPF

this thread prompted me to go back and listen to some of my SPC4omni>V3>670 recordings from Wakarusa07.
Couple of them turned out great:captured the music and disinterested crowd chatter with fantastic detail.

MMW mainstage barely FOB 7~8 ft high sorta wide NOS 110degrees/36cm  (this one would have been lots better if we had been allowed to run high but we were being allowed to run directly FOB just below line of sight for the mixdesk)
EOTO little tent FOB 11 ft high same config   this one turned out best
the Be Good Tanyas little tent FOB 180degrees/30cm   ruined by bleed from another stage

no wind noise (even in Kansas) with the crappy little SP screens.

[capnhook]

Even 3 mic Omnic-Card-Omni sounds really good in a lot of situations.  I haven't run that in the field but we've been using that in sessions for room sound with really good results.  Omnis are a strange beast...

Here's my 3-mic example outdoors --- sounds great cranked......also through headphones.

http://www.archive.org/details/nrps2007-09-22.nak303.flac16

 

[Gutbucket]

Even 3 mic Omnic-Card-Omni sounds really good in a lot of situations.  I haven't run that in the field but we've been using that in sessions for room sound with really good results.  Omnis are a strange beast...

Here's my 3-mic example outdoors --- sounds great cranked......also through headphones.

http://www.archive.org/details/nrps2007-09-22.nak303.flac16

 

Capnhook,
Ahh, the 3 Nak setup.  Curious about this... I assume this is all 3 mics spaced along the same plane?  Do you mix equal amounts of all 3 on the Nak mix box? or reduce the center a bit as is common for a Decca tree mix?  What's up with the card center? ..is card preferred in that position for detail and to be able to reduce the ambient contribution of the flanking omni's?  More a mater of what's on hand? Ever run three omni's? or the center farther out in front?

Evil,
Are you using all 3 mics for ambient room or the cardioid close mic'ed and the two omnis for stereo ambient room?

[Gutbucket]

To my ear omnis sound really "unnatural" if you're not close to the sound source.  Maybe they sound too "natural" that they lose their musicality but without proximity effect going on you just end up with this airy kind of thin feeling sound...

I find the spacing for near-spaced omni's to be quite important to the feel and tone of the recording.

When I arrived at my 39" spacing sweet-spot starting point, I did so by listening closely through in-ear monitors while adjusting the spread for the most appealing tonal balance and stereo spread.  The distance effects both, but I consider getting the adjustment right for good tonal balance more critical to my ear than getting a good stereo spread.  I can dial it in pretty close by listening to the pre-show fill music before the show - because it's at a lower level, the bass bleed in though the phones isn't too bad and I can sometimes make a better adjustment for the low end than when trying to hear once the show is at full volume. It's easier to hear the effect on the top end even at volume since the isolation of the phones is more effective in that range.

It seems to me there is plenty of phase interference going between the two mics in these near-spaced scenarios which can either help or hurt the sound, depending on the spacing and the situation.  When the distance is set right the phase interaction provides much of that the sweet airy top along with a nice open and wide low end. I suspect I don't like the baffle (at a distance at least) because it likely reduces much of that positive phase interaction of the high end that I'm listening for.

In any case, I highly recommend adjusting the distance between mics by ear for best results!

...Running the mics at 180 isn't going to do anything for omnis besides distancing the capsules since they have a spherical pickup pattern.  If you really wanted to you could point them towards the sun and it wouldn't matter...

I definitely notice some top end directionality of my omnis. It only effects the sizzle and air above 10khz but it detectably rolls off up there off-axis, and my 4060's are less directional than many other omnis if only because of their small diameter. Try putting some 'phones on and listening to the sibilant sound when rubbing you fingers together directly in front of the mic vs. off to the side or around back.

[edit] oh, forget it, I'll make a new post..

[Gutbucket]

More thoughts..

I've never had a chance to run really wide omnis like the 10'-20' some here have stated preferences for, but I would think the effect that small spacing adjustments have on the tone of the recording described above wouldn't be an issue at those distances.

Spaced omni recordings have plenty of uncorrelated room ambience and reverb, part of why they tend to sound 'open' and 'big'.  As I understand it, non-digital Dolby surround decoding is based on phase differences between the L and R signals.  Some of you stereo purists may cringe, but my spaced omni recordings work really nicely with some subtle surround decoding.  The ambient background really wraps around. The effect is stronger with spacings of over a few feet.

[Cheesecadet]

Well, I figured I would post a pic of my first attempt at using my omnis.  These were about 8' from the stacks, center, 6' high, spaced 14" @ 180 degrees.  The recording came out great! 

[Gutbucket]

Hey KLowe, Do I see two rigs going here? a M/S center maybe?

yeup.  M/S in the middle.  I  the M/S in the middle with flanked 43's. 
Running four channels is the best move I have made.  I "typically" dial in the M/S really tight mix with the subs.  Usually decrease the subs by -2db in the final mix b/c the tight (on axis) m/s has tons of detail.

Also...another reason I love 4 channels is if I screw up one set of mics then I have the other to salvage the recording..... as what happened at the echo project last weekend.  I Got to learn firsthand about brickwalling!!!  (yeah).  At least I "think" understand it now and have the M/S recording as the saviour.

This is very similar to what I've been waiting to try - my ADKTL's in M/S or Blumlien with the 4060's spaced on either side using the telescopic TV antenna, all on on stand.

There are so many possibilities possible with that configuration I don't know what to try first.  I can even angle the antennas back to the rear to form a small to medium size Decca tree.  Unfortunately without a 4-channel recorder I'll need to sync both 2 tracks in post.

[edit- congrats on your recording Cheesecadet, glad to hear it worked out well.. plustee]

[capnhook]

Even 3 mic Omnic-Card-Omni sounds really good in a lot of situations.  I haven't run that in the field but we've been using that in sessions for room sound with really good results.  Omnis are a strange beast...

Here's my 3-mic example outdoors --- sounds great cranked......also through headphones.

http://www.archive.org/details/nrps2007-09-22.nak303.flac16

 

Capnhook,
Ahh, the 3 Nak setup.  Curious about this... I assume this is all 3 mics spaced along the same plane?  Do you mix equal amounts of all 3 on the Nak mix box? or reduce the center a bit as is common for a Decca tree mix?  What's up with the card center? ..is card preferred in that position for detail and to be able to reduce the ambient contribution of the flanking omni's?  More a mater of what's on hand? Ever run three omni's? or the center farther out in front?

Evil,
Are you using all 3 mics for ambient room or the cardioid close mic'ed and the two omnis for stereo ambient room?

GB,  rain permitting, I run the center card about a foot higher than the omni's.....to get away from all the chatter I can.  I have run the center mic a foot and a half in front of the omnis, a la Decca tree.........but I'm liking better how a foot higher sounds.  From living room testing, wearing closed headphones, i've found that I like a 40/20/40 ratio best.  I spread the omni's about two feet, and angle them anywhere between 100-120 degrees (closer = wider angle).  If it looks like rain, the center mic goes up only about 4", and I tighten the angle up a bit, so everything fits under the umbrella.

Never been anywhere where people shut up enough to give three omnis a try.  Have heard some great sounding NAK tapes where people have used an omni between shotguns.

 

[Gutbucket]

... i've found that I like a 40/20/40 ratio best.  I spread the omni's about two feet, and angle them anywhere between 100-120 degrees (closer = wider angle)...

When you vary the ratio of center card to side omni's what quality of the sound changes?  detail & presence? ambient echo and crowd noise? stereo width & center stereo image?

..Never been anywhere where people shut up enough to give three omnis a try...

Does the 20% addition of the raised center card really reduce the chatter picked up by the 80% omni portion?

Have heard some great sounding NAK tapes where people have used an omni between shotguns.

I' got some great memories of listening to some of those tapes a couple decades back on an old, long gone smokin'  Nak cassette deck! Been about that long since i heard one.

Thanks for the details,
Peace.

[china_rider]

Have heard some great sounding NAK tapes where people have used an omni between shotguns.

I've been dying for a chance to do this with my AKGs.

[capnhook]

... i've found that I like a 40/20/40 ratio best.  I spread the omni's about two feet, and angle them anywhere between 100-120 degrees (closer = wider angle)...

When you vary the ratio of center card to side omni's what quality of the sound changes?  detail & presence? ambient echo and crowd noise? stereo width & center stereo image?

In closed headphones, as i turn up the gain on the center omni, I get to a point where it really sounds natural to me.  When I dial too much of it into the mix, all the nice detail and presence that fixed that 'too-wide-hole-in-the-middle-2-spread-omni' sound is lost ----- stereo width goes away, and it sounds mid-rangey and kinda flat.  If i back it up 50% from there, I know it will sound right.  There's a pretty wide range where things sound right........and you hear right away when you've added too much.

..Never been anywhere where people shut up enough to give three omnis a try...

Does the 20% addition of the raised center card really reduce the chatter picked up by the 80% omni portion?

No.....i feel it's up there (1) so as not to add any more chatter than the omnis are picking up, and (2) so I can space and spread the omnis as wide as possible.