Topic: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?

[stirinthesauce]

Close micing of classical music? I thought those terms were mutually exclusive.

I am going to suggest a pair of Audio Technica 4050s. Real giant killers. I posted a test a while back with those microphones in the lineup against some real heavy hitters from DPA, Gefell, Neumann, Schoeps, and AKG...quite a few people(all o studio guys with lots of experience recording classical music ) wrote and told me that they were amazed at how great the ATs sounded, and "are you sure you didnt get the files mixed up"? . I record classical music/acoustic music exclusively and use those mics all the time.

They are clean,perform well in both diffuse and near field applications, cheap, built like tanks, and are extremely versatile. Because of their status as workhorse mics, they will always sell  well.

(also have 3 patterns..card, omni, figure so you can run any config you choose. One of those mics that may not sound amazing on every single application, but will ALWAYS work.(and sound amazing on quite a few things!). I always grab more when I see em on ebay. AT 4050 all the way.
if anyone likes, I will repost my test files so that interested folks can hear for themselves.
teddy

Be interested to hear your sample in a repost.  I'll try and rummage thru my hd for some chamber music I did this summer with my 4050's.  Bout time to track that sucker out    Maybe I'll get a sample up to.

[digifish_music]

So far my short list is:

Rode NT5 or NT4

I've been impressed with the sample NT5 / NT4 recordings I've heard so far. Haven't heard samples of the other mics in the type of music and situation I will be using. Thanks,

I have an NT4 and NT5s. They make great recordings of acoustic instruments. I would recommend the NT5 pair for the added flexibility and reduced cost relative to the NT4.

That said I often end up using the NT4 as it's so convenient and just works.

NT5 Violin / Cello

NT4 3 Piece group

NT4 Acoustic guitar

I'd also have a pair of AT 3032s if UPS would just work out where I live!

This is interesing...piano + vocal

Neumann TLM103

vs

AT3032

Note these are omnis so you can hear more room ambiance vs the Neuman, but the AT3032s sound great IMO.

from

http://www.godsownclay.com/Microphones/at3032page1.html

digifish

[RebelRebel]

Omnis are far superior to any other pattern for recording classical music,(flat response, best LF pickup, best pickup of the room, many other reasons) provided that the venue doesnt sound like a tiled bathroom underwater.

I will repost those files for you.

Close micing of classical music? I thought those terms were mutually exclusive.
...
I am going to suggest a pair of Audio Technica 4050s. Real giant killers.if anyone likes, I will repost my test files so that interested folks can hear for themselves.
teddy

Close is a relative term. During my last session I was recording piano / double bass duets. I put the mics about 6 feet from the double bass and 10 feet from the piano. This gave a decent balance where the piano didn't overpower the bass. Close enough to pick up good detail, far enough away to get a sense of the room space in the recording (but not too much).

I just rebenched my H4 - with my external battery pack the line input measures -1 dB at 20 Hz and -1.3 dB at 20 kHz (with 0 dB set at 1 kHz). A very flat, smooth response curve. Considerably better performance than I last measured. S/N measures over 100 dB. That line voltage battery pack really makes a difference.

I'm a newbie to external mics and don't know how to capture a good stereo image with omnis. I downloaded a couple of docs from Shure that explain everything but I haven't seen if they cover using omnis.

[Jamos]

I'd also have to suggest the AT4050, if you can afford them.  They can be had for $400/new, and less used.  They are really outstanding mics for all kinds of things.

I love the Shure KSM32 & 44's also and would suggest them as well.

I've used NT4's as overheads on drum kits before, but that's the extent of my experience with them.

If you can find a good used pair of DPA 406x, that would be a great option as well.

 

[JD]

You might want to look at the Avenson STO2's as well (omnis).
They can be had for around $500 a pair. I am consistently happy with
the recordings I get with mine, especially when recording acoustic music.

[stirinthesauce]

You might want to look at the Avenson STO2's as well (omnis).
They can be had for around $500 a pair. I am consistently happy with
the recordings I get with mine, especially when recording acoustic music.

Very good option as well.  I miss mine.  Ruler flat freq. response, extremely detailed mics. 

[MRC01]

Omnis are far superior to any other pattern for recording classical music,(flat response, best LF pickup, best pickup of the room, many other reasons) provided that the venue doesnt sound like a tiled bathroom underwater.

I will repost those files for you.

Thanks. A pair of AT4050s is gonna cost twice or more what the NT5 costs. But everyone says they're better and they do look better on paper (I pulled the mfr spec sheet). So it looks like it's down to the NT5 or the AT4050. I look forward to hearing your samples - since the AT4050s are more than twice the price I'd have to be confident how much better they are.

[DSatz]

MRC01, nice to "meet" you--I'm another classical music recording engineer who hangs out here.

When you're recording at relatively close range in a generally well-balanced acoustic (i.e. not harsh or too reverberant), a fully detailed stereo representation down to the last centimeter is neither necessary nor desirable; you tend to get exaggerated width effects such as "the viola that ate Manhattan." Thus you can sidestep the defaults and use microphone patterns such as wide cardioid or omni. These can give a very pleasant overall "feel" of spaciousness to the recording, and musicians often loooove the results as far as their precious tone color is concerned (though my conscience tells me that this is partly a trick of perception).

I'm particularly fond of wide cardioids, since with appropriate placement, they let you get the nifty "feel" while still maintaining a stable stereo image. That is the best of both worlds as far as I'm concerned. On the other hand, if you're on a budget, the minimum cost of reasonably good omni microphones is far less than what you have to pay for a good pair of wide cardioids--unfortunately, since this means that a lot of people never get to use any really good wide cardioids, and never realize what they're missing.

If you decide to use omnidirectional microphones, their on-axis frequency response needs to be fairly close to flat in the treble. Thus you may need to do some shopping around, since the most popular omni microphones for medium-distance recording, and thus the ones people here would be most likely to recommend to you, mostly have a rise on axis of some 5 - 8 dB at high frequencies--a characteristic which is quite undesirable for close-up classical recording. There are reasons for all this, which we can go into if you like. Basically you should be looking for a "free field" rather than a "diffuse field" type of omni in your application.

--best regards

[stirinthesauce]

Omnis are far superior to any other pattern for recording classical music,(flat response, best LF pickup, best pickup of the room, many other reasons) provided that the venue doesnt sound like a tiled bathroom underwater.

I will repost those files for you.

Thanks. A pair of AT4050s is gonna cost twice or more what the NT5 costs. But everyone says they're better and they do look better on paper (I pulled the mfr spec sheet). So it looks like it's down to the NT5 or the AT4050. I look forward to hearing your samples - since the AT4050s are more than twice the price I'd have to be confident how much better they are.

I'm sure Teddy's samples will be much nicer than mine, but here is a 35sec clip I dug up from a chamber concert this summer in a small chapel.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/2rf4zs

This is a student orchestra.  You will here what sounds like some self noise in the background.  It isn't.  The damn exhaust fan (large, old, and rusty) kicked on in the a/v room right as they started.  If I was being payed, I would have freaked out.  As it was, I was just volunteering some time for my Church through some archiving so I just sat through the concert completely distracted.  Anyways, no processing to this whatsoever, just a pair of at4050's, omni setting, about 8' in front split maybe 10'.  Most of what we do is multitracking in clubs so any other samples I have are not what you would be looking for.  What I hear from this sample is what I heard there.  Very transparent, detailed, uncolored sound.  Exactly what I was looking for and why I chose these over other mics in our locker for doing a simple 2 channel recording. 

[MRC01]

I have an NT4 and NT5s. They make great recordings of acoustic instruments.

I am intrigued by the NT-55 samples on your web site. Looks like a contender and the flexibility of cardiod or omni is a big plus. Based on your sound samples, the NT-55's sounds overall more natural than the Neumann. The Neumann has that super detailed top end that many people like - the "hi-fi" sound - but to me it sounds unnaturally brighter than reality. OTOH, the NT-55's bass is exaggerated, bloomy and muffled - the Neumann's bass is more natural.

I suspect that in these samples, the muddy NT-55 bass response is at least in part due to its being omni and picking up room resonances more than the Neumann. Why not compare using the cardiod capsule?

[MRC01]

I'm sure Teddy's samples will be much nicer than mine, but here is a 35sec clip I dug up from a chamber concert this summer in a small chapel.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/2rf4zs

Thanks. It sounds well balanced and slightly on the warm side of neutral. Nice. But a bit boxy. The boxiness could be the room rather than the mic - I'll assume it is, since small chapels can sound that way.
BTW, better intonation than I would expect from a student group 

[MRC01]

Digifish - you have a great web site, love the samples.

What do you think of that NT1-A? Sounds great to me.

[stirinthesauce]

I'm sure Teddy's samples will be much nicer than mine, but here is a 35sec clip I dug up from a chamber concert this summer in a small chapel.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/2rf4zs

Thanks. It sounds well balanced and slightly on the warm side of neutral. Nice. But a bit boxy. The boxiness could be the room rather than the mic - I'll assume it is, since small chapels can sound that way.
BTW, better intonation than I would expect from a student group 

boxiness is definitly the room.  Not ideal for recording.  Our theater is much better, but very large (seats 1600) clappboard theater.

The student group are better than what you would typically get.  These are some of the top student musicians in the country who study at the University every summer as part of their concert series.  Basically practice all day and the best of the best get to perform in the nightly concerts.  Where I live, we are on good terms with the University, so we get a concert series too.  We do 3 chamber concerts (1 per week) and then in our Theater, we have the full orchestra (70+ student musicians) put on their final concert at the end of the series. 

[digifish_music]

What do you think of that NT1-A? Sounds great to me.

Actually I was going to suggest a pair of NT1-A's. To my ear this mic is the steal of the century. The low self noise is amazing in the studio setting. I often pair the NT1-A with a Sound Devices MixPre and together you can hear the termites eating the neighbours house    

The NT1-A does have a hump around 12K in the frequency response, however that said I have never noticed the mic to sound unnatural or brittle. some gentle EQ can fix that if it's an issue. Also being a large diaphragm it's supposedly not as good on fast transients, but again, I have never noticed anything but superb results on acoustic instruments and vocals.

You can buy them in matched pairs too.

digifish

[MRC01]

You can buy them in matched pairs too.

How important is it - in general - to get a matched pair? Does it vary from one maker to the next, depending on how consistent their production runs are?