Topic: My recordings sound muffled... any suggestions?

[Panthro10]

So I am new to taping. I think I have taped about 8 shows now, mostly of people I know in smaller venues. Usually rock shows.. And my recordings seem to sound muffled - that's the best word I can think of to describe how they sound to me. They don't sound bad, just not as clear and warm as I would like. Some of the recordings also sound distant to me, eventhough I am only like 20' from the stage and in the range of the sweet spot (assuming that is the point of the equilateral triangle formed by the stacks and the mics). I am running the busman bsc1 kit into a stock FR2LE with kindkables. I have tried different caps and setups. I have not broken out a ruler and protractor though.. I have heard other recordings on LMA made with this equipment that sound good to me. Right now my thoughts are that it's possibly the fr2le, maybe I would prefer the modded sound, maybe the Transparent mod or something. But I was wondering if anyone else has maybe had experience with this.. I guess I could post some samples sometime if someone thinks that would help. I also don't know much about the post-process. I have been using soundbooth. I basically open the 24/48 file, boost levels to 0db, and have tried normalizing and not normalizing, and using some compression or filters or whatever,  but nothing seems to really bring out the sound I would like. So I typically just get the peaks to about 0db and leave it alone.

I just have really not been that happy with anything I've done so far, and kind of don't know what to do at this point...

Any thoughts/suggestions?

[boojum]

Post a sample

[Panthro10]

Post a sample

Here's a sample of Deer Tick on 5-30-09 at the Talking Head in Baltimore.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=c60fb9af910226aca0f2f20c509059d91a31f2c3cc992fc9ce018c8114394287

[Panthro10]

Oh.. and this was the subcards about 7' high, NOS setup, dead center about 25' from the stage. There was a column right behind the mics.. I had to set up right in front of it to have some sort of protection from the drunks. But a bunch of people still tripped over/bumped into the stand... I picked up a bit of chatter too.. prolly should've run the regular cards, but had run the subcards there before with a less chatty crowd with decent results..

[Gutbucket]

I haven't listened to the sample.

Have you played with adjusting your eq for playback?
Eq can be tricky to get right*, but can often be just what's what you're looking for.

I suggest you try a graphic eq, hunt around by boosting or cutting individual sliders to ID the effected frequency, then make gentle curves using limited boost, cutting as much in the bass as you need. Maybe use a little less than you think sounds right, aim for shallow, gentle curves if possible.

You might try:
Attenuating possibly excessive and resonant bass somewhere in the 80 to 130Hz region
Reducing 'boxiness' around 200 to 300Hz
Making a slight boost in the 'presence' upper mid-range around 1.8k to 3.5kHz
Increasing everything above a certain mid frequency with a 'shelf'-like top end boost or a gentle upward slope, while decreasing the boost anywhere it tends to get 'screachy' or too bright.

Sometimes a gentle 'tilt' dialed in across the entire frequency range like a smooth up hill incline can do the trick.


*dialing in eq that actually improves the sound (other than just changing it from another form of 'meh') is tricky, even for your own playback system.  It is much, much more challenging if you plan to modify the file with eq for playback on other systems by other people.  Doing that is arguably the most important part of the engineering art of mastering and is so difficult to get right without causing potential irreparable damage to the music for everyone else with different stereos and ears, that it is mostly frowned upon around here. But that's sharing the files, eq it however it sounds best when you play it back and you may be surprised at how good you can get some things to sound with a bit of work and a sharp ear.

[F.O.Bean]

PM sent!

And is EVERY RECORDING coming out muffled, or just your last one when you used the subcards Start using your HYPER CAPSULES in a DINa mic config, which is 17cm/90*. That normally takes away any "muffling" and at least in my experience, makes a crisp, crystal clear recording, with A LOT LESS CROWD CHATTER!!!! Also, running hypoers cuts down on excessive bass response, since hypers naturally have a SLIGHT bass rolloff, without having the need to run an external highpass filter I run Hypers/DINa 99.99% of the time, and I can 100% HONESTLY SAY, that since I started running Hypers/DINa, I have CONSISTENTLY made AMAZING RECORDINGS, at least IMO, and have made maybe 1-2 subpar recordings, and those were because of the way the show was mixed, and not my gear I have NEVER BEEN HAPPIER since I started running Hypers/DINa about 4-5 years ago I ahve also made CONSISTENTLY AMAZING RECORDINGS TIME AFTER TIME w/ that combo,. so give it a try and see if you liek those results better.

I'd also get your FR2LE MODDED, either with a Vintage Warm MOD or a Transparent Clear MOD, done by Busman Audio! There have been alot of bad rumblings about the Oade Brothers recently, so I would DEFINITELY go with the BUSMAN AIUDIO MODS, plus, I constantly hear that Busman Audio's customer service is BAR NONE THE BEST and consistently AMAZING

Best of luck and HAPPY TAPING BRO!

Bean

[anr]

http://sharebee.com/0ae2bc7e
Filename: dt1.flac   Size: 10.26 MB

I agree with your assessment.

A quick look confirms a significant roll-off after 800Hz, which would account for the dull sound.  

Other easily fixed minor issues are;

Right channel about 1.4dB higher than left (although it's a very small sample)
Small DC Offset
Mains hum

Download from my link and see what you think.


I'm not so averse to "tweaking" ones own recordings, although I think everyone would recommend retaining the master.  This way, the vagaries of the venue acoustics and, perhaps, equipment limitations, can be compensated for to make the recording more enjoyable.  

BTW, I thought it a nice, clean recording.  

[Panthro10]

I agree with your assessment.

A quick look confirms a significant roll-off after 800Hz, which would account for the dull sound.  

Other easily fixed minor issues are;

Right channel about 1.4dB higher than left (although it's a very small sample)
Small DC Offset
Mains hum

Download from my link and see what you think.


I'm not so averse to "tweaking" ones own recordings, although I think everyone would recommend retaining the master.  This way, the vagaries of the venue acoustics and, perhaps, equipment limitations, can be compensated for to make the recording more enjoyable.  

BTW, I thought it a nice, clean recording.  

Thank you for taking a listen. I could post a raw sample and see if the same issues are present or if it was something I did in post. The one channel being off 1.4dB has been consistent on all of my recordings. I had thought it was the trim pots on the fr2le. I will have to run a couple more experiments to pinpoint the problem.

Could you (or anyone) elaborate on the other issues - the roll off, DC offset, and hum?

I haven't had a chance to listen to your sample yet, but I will sometime tonight.

[muj]

headphones or speakers?

[Panthro10]

headphones or speakers?

Speakers... But on computer with decent speakers, home stereo with ok speakers and car stereo with nice speakers, all sound muffled. Sounds best on the computer..

[datbrad]

PM sent!

And is EVERY RECORDING coming out muffled, or just your last one when you used the subcards Start using your HYPER CAPSULES in a DINa mic config, which is 17cm/90*. That normally takes away any "muffling" and at least in my experience, makes a crisp, crystal clear recording, with A LOT LESS CROWD CHATTER!!!! Also, running hypoers cuts down on excessive bass response, since hypers naturally have a SLIGHT bass rolloff, without having the need to run an external highpass filter I run Hypers/DINa 99.99% of the time, and I can 100% HONESTLY SAY, that since I started running Hypers/DINa, I have CONSISTENTLY made AMAZING RECORDINGS, at least IMO, and have made maybe 1-2 subpar recordings, and those were because of the way the show was mixed, and not my gear I have NEVER BEEN HAPPIER since I started running Hypers/DINa about 4-5 years ago I ahve also made CONSISTENTLY AMAZING RECORDINGS TIME AFTER TIME w/ that combo,. so give it a try and see if you liek those results better.

I'd also get your FR2LE MODDED, either with a Vintage Warm MOD or a Transparent Clear MOD, done by Busman Audio! There have been alot of bad rumblings about the Oade Brothers recently, so I would DEFINITELY go with the BUSMAN AIUDIO MODS, plus, I constantly hear that Busman Audio's customer service is BAR NONE THE BEST and consistently AMAZING

Best of luck and HAPPY TAPING BRO!

Bean

Bean, I hate to have to disagree with you so strongly, but hypers are not the end-all, be-all of making clean recordings. I have heard sub-card DPA and Schoeps recordings made in situations that suit them best where NO HYPER CAPSULE MADE BY ANY MANUFACTURER ON THIS PLANET COULD TOUCH THEM, PERIOD! Sorry to burst your hyper-love bubble, but I know I am in the majority opinion on this.

In order to know when and how to use cards and subcards to their maximum potential, a taper must have a solid grasp of both the pickup characteristics of each capsule type, how these translate with different stereo patterns, and the accoustic properties of the space they are recording in. With mics with a broader pickup angle, more care and consideration is required. Sure, you can take a pair of hypers and make a clean "stack like" tape with a 90 degree DINa, but the soundstage will be collapsed and the imaging will suffer.

This craft is not something most folks can master in their first few years of taping, but over time it will become easier and easier to do well. It just takes alot of practice in a wide variety of recording situations. It may be that there are situations where by choosing subcards, the OP was doomed to make a "muffled" recording that a hyper would have been able to cut through the muck. However, there also could be cases where the subcards were the right call, but in the application the wrong stereo pattern was used, or the stand was too low, etc.

I only use my CK63s in places where I am in the back of a boomy room, or in a shed behind the SBD, typically using an 80 degree NOS pattern. Otherwise, I use the CK61 cards in either a DINa or ORTF, depending on the situation. A well made recording with cards or subcards with the correct choice of pattern and stand height will have more depth, width, and natural tone than a hyper setup in the same spot.

Likewise, a poorly executed recording with cards or subcards where bad choices were made in terms of pattern and placement definately has the potential to sound bad compared to hypers, even if the hypers were not placed precisely. I do think for the OP, he needs to get someone to mod that FR2LE (and spare the guy the third hand Oade stuff from those useless threads a couple of weeks ago, unless you PERSONALLY have had experiences with both modders to share that would give you any credibility to advise a preference based on anything other than recorded samples). He should download samples of recordings made with Busman as well as Oade mods and let his own ears decide which one to go with. That should be the only deciding factor for the OP initially.

Taping is a journey of learning, and after 25 years of taping, I am still learning new things at shows, and getting good at choosing the right capsules, patterns, and placement. I still consider myself a student of the hobby, and the longer I have been at it, the more I find the absolutes and so-called universal truths to be flexible. With photography, it's the photographer's skill that dictates the quality of his composition, not the gear he uses to record the images. The gear is just the tool, the paintbrush does not paint a masterpiece, it's the hand that guides it.

My .02

[setboy]

Are these your first mics? Or were you running something before them?
I know when i went from the at933's to busman mics they sounded a bit muffled since the at933s are very bright sounding mics. The busman mics also sounds a lot like the room. when the room sounds bad and the highs are being sucked up and dying really fast, i have gotten some recordings that could be called a bit muffled.

[Panthro10]

Are these your first mics? Or were you running something before them?
I know when i went from the at933's to busman mics they sounded a bit muffled since the at933s are very bright sounding mics. The busman mics also sounds a lot like the room. when the room sounds bad and the highs are being sucked up and dying really fast, i have gotten some recordings that could be called a bit muffled.

First set of mics..

I don't think it's so much the room, as i think all of my recordings in different rooms have sounded like this..

[page]

Are these your first mics? Or were you running something before them?
I know when i went from the at933's to busman mics they sounded a bit muffled since the at933s are very bright sounding mics. The busman mics also sounds a lot like the room. when the room sounds bad and the highs are being sucked up and dying really fast, i have gotten some recordings that could be called a bit muffled.

First set of mics..

I don't think it's so much the room, as i think all of my recordings in different rooms have sounded like this..

1) Running screens and if so what type, thickness, and density? This will subtly change the sound. I've found that for my Busman LD mic, if I run it with the screen, it takes a bite out of the presence bump that the card pattern seems to have, while i I run it open, I get that 8-11khz boost (sometimes thats good, sometimes it's not). That might be enough to cause you to notice, might not.

2) Have you taped the same show as someone else (e.g. been on their stand or really close)? Trade for their tape and compare.

[Panthro10]

Are these your first mics? Or were you running something before them?
I know when i went from the at933's to busman mics they sounded a bit muffled since the at933s are very bright sounding mics. The busman mics also sounds a lot like the room. when the room sounds bad and the highs are being sucked up and dying really fast, i have gotten some recordings that could be called a bit muffled.

First set of mics..

I don't think it's so much the room, as i think all of my recordings in different rooms have sounded like this..

1) Running screens and if so what type, thickness, and density? This will subtly change the sound. I've found that for my Busman LD mic, if I run it with the screen, it takes a bite out of the presence bump that the card pattern seems to have, while i I run it open, I get that 8-11khz boost (sometimes thats good, sometimes it's not). That might be enough to cause you to notice, might not.

2) Have you taped the same show as someone else (e.g. been on their stand or really close)? Trade for their tape and compare.

No screens. And I have been the only taper at most of the shows I have taped. But I do have a friend who just got his rig up and running (nak 300's > ua-5 > jb3) so I could run some comparisons with him this summer..

[Gutbucket]

Bass end is problematic beyond eq, but here's a quick & dirty foobar curve to bring better goodness-

[Panthro10]

Bass end is problematic beyond eq, but here's a quick & dirty foobar curve to bring better goodness-

thanks.. I'll give it a try. there was some type of club (heavy bass) show going on in the room next to the one I was taping in and you could completely hear the bass the whole time. 4 bands played that night, on the others' sets, I had to use the "rumble" eliminator in soundbooth set all the way up to 80Hz just to get it to sound ok.. I'm sure I loose some of the bass from the bands, but it's almost unlistenable to me otherwise

[F.O.Bean]

try recording your stereo and see if the problem is still there!

[Javier Cinakowski]

did anyone listen to the sample?

It sounds like a sub-card recording in a shitty room...  I'm not so sure the problem is the the recording equipment...

[setboy]

did anyone listen to the sample?

It sounds like a sub-card recording in a shitty room...  I'm not so sure the problem is the the recording equipment...

sounds likea bad room. maybe the wrong place in a bad room.

[Gutbucket]

It sounds like a sub-card recording in a shitty room... 

Except that the low bass information is considerably lower in level than would be expected from a recording using sub-cardioids in that situation.  Panthro's explanation of the necessity of applying the 80hz 'rumble eliminator' filter goes a long way toward explaining that anomaly.

[Panthro10]

It sounds like a sub-card recording in a shitty room... 

Except that the low bass information is considerably lower in level than would be expected from a recording using sub-cardioids in that situation.  Panthro's explanation of the necessity of applying the 80hz 'rumble eliminator' filter goes a long way toward explaining that anomaly.

It was not applied to sample that I posted

[bugg100]

25 feet is a LONG way back...  Try a "stack tape" and see if this changes things for you. Basically tape about 5-7 feet from the pa speaker. If you feel this is less muffled, it's time to study mic placement issues. 

Do this before you spend more money on hypers, mods, pres, etc.

Very similar thread ongoing now...
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,122946.0.html

[Ekib]

Have you tried pointing your mic's in the right direction ?
For example my Core Sound Stealthy Cardioid sounds best when they are in a 45 direction. Like in my case they sound best when they are pointing towards C in the picture below. When they are pointing towards B the recording really sounds muffled.

[J.D.S.]

Are these your first mics? Or were you running something before them?
I know when i went from the at933's to busman mics they sounded a bit muffled since the at933s are very bright sounding mics. The busman mics also sounds a lot like the room. when the room sounds bad and the highs are being sucked up and dying really fast, i have gotten some recordings that could be called a bit muffled.

First set of mics..

I don't think it's so much the room, as i think all of my recordings in different rooms have sounded like this..

1) Running screens and if so what type, thickness, and density? This will subtly change the sound. I've found that for my Busman LD mic, if I run it with the screen, it takes a bite out of the presence bump that the card pattern seems to have, while i I run it open, I get that 8-11khz boost (sometimes thats good, sometimes it's not). That might be enough to cause you to notice, might not.

2) Have you taped the same show as someone else (e.g. been on their stand or really close)? Trade for their tape and compare.

No screens. And I have been the only taper at most of the shows I have taped. But I do have a friend who just got his rig up and running (nak 300's > ua-5 > jb3) so I could run some comparisons with him this summer..

i would say do a comp w/ other Busman mic's, running similar gear as you are. not against the Naks. they're a bright mic imo. plus he's running a UA-5 with it and a JB3 which at most can record 44.1/48. you said you're running 24/48. gonna be a difference.

Are you turning on the HPF?

[intpseeker]

did anyone listen to the sample?

It sounds like a sub-card recording in a shitty room...  I'm not so sure the problem is the the recording equipment...

That was my take. I think I've been in that room...or one's just like it.

[Panthro10]

well I recorded the same room last night. I think it sounds a lot better. I used hypers pointed at the stacks. And I was about 10' closer to the stage. I set up right in the middle of the floor. But my battery died like 15 min into the set, and I didn't realize until like 35 min into it.. oh well...

[goodcooker]

well I recorded the same room last night. I think it sounds a lot better. I used hypers pointed at the stacks. And I was about 10' closer to the stage. I set up right in the middle of the floor. But my battery died like 15 min into the set, and I didn't realize until like 35 min into it.. oh well...

welcome to taping You get the right caps and the right location for the room then your batts die....it's always something.

[F.O.Bean]

well I recorded the same room last night. I think it sounds a lot better. I used hypers pointed at the stacks. And I was about 10' closer to the stage. I set up right in the middle of the floor. But my battery died like 15 min into the set, and I didn't realize until like 35 min into it.. oh well...

welcome to taping You get the right caps and the right location for the room then your batts die....it's always something.

No doubt. BUMMER to say the very least