Topic: How to make a bootleg...without even trying

[macroint]

Several weeks ago I wrote the management of Amp Fiddler to find out if he had a favorable policy towards tapers (he used to be in PFunk, so I figured he might be similarly cool)...but I received no response. I checked Amp's website, but there was nothing. There's a link to a Message Board on his site and I posted my query there (his management runs the board)...got a response from someone who thought he "should" have a favorable policy, but nothing else. I checked a few other forums, posting my query here and there...nothing.

The night of the show (this past Monday) I went to the venue and asked the sound guy for the venue if he'd do me a favor and ask Amp or his entourage if it was ok for me to tape. The person he asked was the sound guy for the band. He said it was fine. I went upstairs to set up my gear and couldn't find a suitable spot, so I was gonna leave. But I decided to take a shot and asked their sound guy if I could tape from the stage...he looked at my rig and said it was cool.

After Amp's set, I was packing up my gear (with no intention of taping the headliner Rapahel "Ray Ray" Saadiq from some band called Toni, Tone, Tony...or something) and some one from Raphael's crew started giving me shit and telling me I couldn't tape. I told him I got permission from the sound guy to tape Amp and had no intention of taping Raphael, so he left me alone.

When I got home, I posted an offer to send a copy of the show to people on the Amp Fiddler message board (my way of thanking the band for letting me tape)...sort of like a B&P offer, except that I just wanted people to send the correct postage (and postage only, no cash) and I'd send the disc free. The next day (yesterday), that message was pulled from the board and the board admin sent me a note letting me know that Amp's management was pissed that I taped the show without authorization.

This morning, I received the following e-mail from Amp's management....I wrote back letting them know I'd be happy to send a copy of the show (I try to send bands I tape a copy anyway) but I wasn't going to part with the master. Just wondering where I might stand on the issue of getting permission to tape from someone who wasn't authorized to give that permission (though I didn't know that):


Hi Jeffrey,

This has just come through from our Forum administrator. I'm not quite sure
what the confusion has been, but as we have had no advance warning received
for the request to tape the show, we could not give approval and the
engineer was wrong to allow this recording to happen. Our forum
administrator has passed on your posting offering people copies of the shows
which was not agreed and will not be agreed to. You have no juristiction
whatsoever to offer someone elses material for sale without at first
offering them some kind of deal memo. This is why your message was taken
down. If Amp's label catches anyone selling or distributing illegal show
copies then they will take legal action.

I would suggest that as we have not authorised this recording with you, you
kindly send us the original copy and do not keep any for personal use or
otherwise.

Most artists will not allow any kind of recording whatsoever unless it is
for specific purposes to promote them, and not for someone elses personal
gain.

If any further messages are posted on the Forum making such offers we will
be forced to take them down.

Kind regards

[Brian]

that's weird, what bunch of idiots.

however if i remember correctly from my media law class, the band does reserve the right to have the master DAT. 

[pfife]

Personally, I'd ignore it for a little while and see if they persist.  Did you tape this with something with a physical tape/disc?  Make a copy of it, and send it to them as if it were the original...

that sucks dog

[macroint]

that's weird, what bunch of idiots.
however if i remember correctly from my media law class, the band does reserve the right to have the master DAT. 

  But in the age of the NJB3, getting the master is useless since I'd still have it.

[Brian]

that's weird, what bunch of idiots.
however if i remember correctly from my media law class, the band does reserve the right to have the master DAT. 

  But in the age of the NJB3, getting the master is useless since I'd still have it.

so just send them a copy of the show after you transfer it to your computer's hard drive and be done with the situation.

[The Kilted Taper]

They won't know that though...

I think a) you should fwd them a copy of the email you sent several weeks ago asking about the policy b) remind him that you were not selling these discs, just asking for return postage (not even blanks, just postage). c) enlighten him that hundreds (if not 1000's) of bands allow open taping where he claims most would never allow it. Be nice and civil about it. You were under the impression it was allowed, as you did ask and were given the OK.

[gewwang]

as we have had no advance warning received
for the request to tape the show, we could not give approval and the
engineer was wrong to allow this recording to happen. Our forum
administrator has passed on your posting offering people copies of the shows
which was not agreed and will not be agreed to. You have no juristiction
whatsoever to offer someone elses material for sale without at first
offering them some kind of deal memo. This is why your message was taken
down. If Amp's label catches anyone selling or distributing illegal show
copies then they will take legal action.

So are they saying that they would have allowed you to tape and distribute if they had gotten advance warning?

Most artists will not allow any kind of recording whatsoever unless it is
for specific purposes to promote them, and not for someone elses personal
gain.

Why not write them back and educate them on the fact that taping and distributing your tape is specifically promoting them and not so much for personal gain other than having a copy of the show for personal use.

[JAH]

Why not write them back and educate them on the fact that taping and distributing your tape is specifically promoting them and not so much for personal gain other than having a copy of the show for personal use.

yes archival purposes and not for commercial use.  and all the stuff Born Again wrote.  Make note that trading (TRADING) music helps spread the word of what a great band they are and other's will want to see them next time they are in town....meaning more ticket sales!


jah

[Tim]

They won't know that though...

I think a) you should fwd them a copy of the email you sent several weeks ago asking about the policy b) remind him that you were not selling these discs, just asking for return postage (not even blanks, just postage). c) enlighten him that hundreds (if not 1000's) of bands allow open taping where he claims most would never allow it. Be nice and civil about it. You were under the impression it was allowed, as you did ask and were given the OK.

well said...

[dnsacks]

seems their biggest beef is that you're "profiting" from the distribution of these recordings.  I'd try to make it clear that this simply isn't true, and that you're actually losing money on each copy you send out (as the requestor is merely reimbursing you for postage and you're eating the cost of the physical media).  I'd also emphasize that you're taking on this "noble act" to help turn others on to their music and thus increase their ticket and music sales (i.e. help their bottom line).   I think they view you as a parasite trying to profit off of their performance/intellectual property.  If you spin your reply to show that this couldn't be farther from the truth, you could win them over.  Good luck

[macroint]

seems their biggest beef is that you're "profiting" from the distribution of these recordings.  I'd try to make it clear that this simply isn't true, and that you're actually losing money on each copy you send out (as the requestor is merely reimbursing you for postage and you're eating the cost of the physical media).  I'd also emphasize that you're taking on this "noble act" to help turn others on to their music and thus increase their ticket and music sales (i.e. help their bottom line). 

  The guy who writes me doesn't give a rat's ass about turning people onto the music...and unless someone does a study that shows that trading has (or doesn't) a positive impact of official album sales/concert revenue, I doubt many people would agree.

  From the latest e-mail I received, it appears that Amp Fiddler plans on releasing a live album in 2005 and they think my live recording will eat into their profits...my recording is good, but it ain't good enough to compete with a studio produced live album. I wonder if the opposition is coming strictly from management...I just don't see Amp being this way.

[Tim]

I'm sure Amp has no idea.....

[silverbullet]

that's weird, what bunch of idiots.

however if i remember correctly from my media law class, the band does reserve the right to have the master DAT. 

Damn, that's like saying to my wedding photographer that I reserve the right to own the negatives of all the photos shot on my wedding day. Which is just never the case as far as I know. I don't know any photographers that give up their negatives. Why should tapers give up master tapes?

oh well Just send them a clone 

[The Kilted Taper]

that's weird, what bunch of idiots.

however if i remember correctly from my media law class, the band does reserve the right to have the master DAT. 

Damn, that's like saying to my wedding photographer that I reserve the right to own the negatives of all the photos shot on my wedding day. Which is just never the case as far as I know. I don't know any photographers that give up their negatives. Why should tapers give up master tapes?

oh well Just send them a clone 

Really?? The photographer at my wedding gave us all the negatives. It was part of the deal. Feel bad because we never ordered any prints, but he made 3x5's of everything and gave us the negatives.

[macroint]

Really?? The photographer at my wedding gave us all the negatives. It was part of the deal. Feel bad because we never ordered any prints, but he made 3x5's of everything and gave us the negatives.

  The photog at my wedding said he'd hang onto the negatives for five years and then if we wanted, we could buy them from him. Fortunately we found a way to save paying him: we got divorced.

[silverbullet]

  I guess perhaps I should have shopped around for more photographers. I found a good photographer and I'm happy. Never crossed my mind about asking for the negatives. I thought it was just the norm that professional photographers keep the negatives. Not sure why I thought that because I'm sure they just get tossed in the trash after a year or so in shoebox storage.

I'd sure like to learn more about normal procedures in these matters with paid professional photographers. Lessons learn now for me is to ask before hand if I want negatives now.

[silverbullet]

The photog at my wedding said he'd hang onto the negatives for five years and then if we wanted, we could buy them from him. Fortunately we found a way to save paying him: we got divorced.

Too funny. +T for the laugh

[The Kilted Taper]

We may have had to shop around to find someone that would give us the negatives. I think that was his selling point. Oh well....Sorry to change the subject of the thread. 

[jpschust]

generally prof photogs keep their negs. 

personally my favorite part of the story is the douche signing the email "Kind Regards"

[pfife]

I guess perhaps I should have shopped around for more photographers. I found a good photographer and I'm happy. Never crossed my mind about asking for the negatives. I thought it was just the norm that professional photographers keep the negatives. Not sure why I thought that because I'm sure they just get tossed in the trash after a year or so in shoebox storage.

If it makes you feel any better, I've always heard the same thing as you- that they generally won't part with the negatives.

[Brian]

well i was going to try to come up with an in-depth response on how photagraphy of a wedding is different from you recording a band, but i can't really put it into the right words and i don't want to make myself look like a jackass

basically, a contract is usually signed with a professional photographer.  you didn't sign any contract when you recorded the band.  They gave you permission to record. In most circumstances the band has an official policy designating certain rights.  Since Amp has no official policy I'm afraid they can do whatever they want with the master recording if they choose to.

or at least i think that's how it goes.  My media law class was only 8 weeks long   a lawyer should be able to clear this up.

[tibbsa]

This morning, I received the following e-mail from Amp's management....I wrote back letting them know I'd be happy to send a copy of the show (I try to send bands I tape a copy anyway) but I wasn't going to part with the master. Just wondering where I might stand on the issue of getting permission to tape from someone who wasn't authorized to give that permission (though I didn't know that):

At least here in Canada, when dealing with contract/agency law, if person A is acting on behalf of person B, it is generally held that if A "makes a deal" that a person in A's position would, by industry standards, normally be authorized to make, the contract will be binding.  (i.e. if a purchasing agent for a pet store buys 300 bunnies, and the seller wasn't aware that this particular agent wasn't actually allowed to do that, the store would still have to buy the bunnies... they could maybe go after the _agent_ later, but the contract itself would typically be binding, UNLESS the third party was aware, or ought to have been aware, that A didn't actually have that authority.) 

That being said, I'm not sure how that would apply in this case, except that it would be reasonable to assume that the band's sound engineer would know one way or the other about such matters.  You HAD taken reasonable steps to obtain said permission prior to the show, too.  But, I don't think it's worth a legal battle.   

Send them a copy of the CD, don't bother distributing it, and chock it up to idiocy.  Their management did a great job of trying to sound "professional" and "authoritative," but they tried too hard IMO.  Being reasonable about such things, and actually reading what you wrote, would really help them a lot. 

Disclaimer: I have no legal training per se, nor is the above intended as strict legal advice.  This is, however, what my current "Business Law" textbook claims to be the case. 

[mikeincharleston]

"You have no juristiction whatsoever to offer someone elses material for sale"


did you show him that at no point in the topic did you try to sell the show, but were actually GIVING IT AWAY, just asking for postage?

[mikeincharleston]

just a funny side story.  i went to tape groove collective at ziggy's once and explained to the band i didn't have a rig and there were no tapers (there were seriously like 20-30 people).  one of the guys in the band says it's totally cool if i get a board patch.  i turn around and their manager is behind me and says "i don't think so" and the guy in the band just kind of shrugs.  however after a little talk he let me have a patch.  so i go up to the soundguy (at ziggy's) and he said "not patch".  i tell him the band and the management said it was ok, and he says "i don't care who said what, this is my board and you get no patch".  after the show the manager asks how it worked out and i explained it to him and he got pissed and said you should have come and got me and i would have gotten him to patch you up.  when i showed up the next night at the visulite to tape again he was extremely nice to me cause he now knew i was a fan of the band and willing to drive hours to see them and not just a "bootlegger".  i got a patch at the visulite, and almost got the whole show, but wound up having battery problems.  sucks cause i thought the ziggy's show was better, but i was glad to see them.  seems like it was their last tour.  they play in nyc from time to time, but not so much anywhere else.  rant over

[Tall Adam]

  The guy who writes me doesn't give a rat's ass about turning people onto the music...and unless someone does a study that shows that trading has (or doesn't) a positive impact of official album sales/concert revenue, I doubt many people would agree.

ive got a study for you. its called phish.

[Ed.]

personally, not to sound like an asshole, but you did everything you could and were being nice about it.  they're the ones being rude.  I'd send them a copy of the show and then "lose touch" with them.

i might not give them my home address either...so no return addy on the envelope.

also, just to be polite and all, i wouldn't share the show with others, at least not on their msg boards.  its cool to be nice and to share the wealth, but when the bands mgt says no, why bother making waves.

[mmedley.]

Personally I would not send them anything. They will forget about it and so will you. You did absolutely nothing wrong. You made sure to get permission and got it. It'll blow over.

[silverbullet]

ditto with last reply. Seems to me like they are making the waves. Don't bend over backwards to make it easier for them to screw you later on.

[momule]

My Buddy offered Up a few B&P's of Gregg Allman "duct tape" sessions On Emule.
He got a real nasty email about 2 days later and Then a another Formal letter/Email from Greggs "atty" demanding that he send any copys of the show he had to the Atty's address..

long story short it blew over very quickly and this was almost 2 years ago so Im guessing they blew it off.

I aggree with most folks send them a copy hell for that matter if it looks better clone the DAT or whatever media and send um a copy and say heres your master, Have a nice day.

Odd's are they will leave ya alone

Nick

[NewHomebrew]

maybe it's not the taping part but the distribution part they don't like?