Topic: Ethics Question - ALD recording if hearing impaired

[bgalizio]

NOOB non-taper here with an ethics question.

I am hearing impaired and use an ALD at most concerts.  It has come to my attention that some people record through the ALD's.  I'll be attending a show that is taper friendly (AUD only, not SBD) and was wondering what the etiquette for me taping from the ALD would be, considering that I have a legitimate reason to use one and that they are usually fed through the SBD.  FWIW, I'll be able to borrow either a DAT deck or a MD recorder depending.

Thanks for all the great concert recordings you guys have done throughout the years!

EDIT: Oh, and I did do a search, and found lots of information on ALD recordings, but nothing that applied directly to my situation.

[John R]

since the show is a taper friendly show, there's less of an ethical problem than if the band was not taper friendly.  stealth is still stealth.  the auds will probably sound better anyway.  do you really need you ald for a concert, or is it more for beaing able to hear the spoken word.  i'd say enjoy the concert and patch.  from what i've read here and elsewhere, the ald really isn't delivering that high quality a signal.  ymmv

jr

[bgalizio]

I usually flip my telecoil (that gets the signal from the ALD to my hearing aids) off during the music if it's a louder show, but flip it on for between song banter.  The AUD taping will almost certainly sound better, but I thought it might be fun to tape from the ALD to see how it sounds, and maybe provide it to a taper to create a matrix if the sound is good enough.

[John R]

I usually flip my telecoil (that gets the signal from the ALD to my hearing aids) off during the music if it's a louder show, but flip it on for between song banter.  The AUD taping will almost certainly sound better, but I thought it might be fun to tape from the ALD to see how it sounds, and maybe provide it to a taper to create a matrix if the sound is good enough.

go for it

[bgalizio]

It turns out that this venue doesn't have an ALD system in place (I've never been there before).  So bummer for my concert experience and possible taping.  I'm not sure what the ADA states for compliance, but I'm pretty sure they just have to have accessible seats that are close to the stage for hearing impaired folks.

[MattD]

I'd call the venue and explain your situation and see what they can do.

Here's a place to start on the law, though I'm sure the lawyer types (Tim will probably respond first) can provide a link to the exact clause you're looking for.

[Patrick]

Can anyone provide an example of a show taped from the listening devices?  I thought that a phish show in 1995 from Madison Square Garden was circulating with this source, but I can;t find it anywhere.

But I definitely want to try it one day.

[bgalizio]

I'd call the venue and explain your situation and see what they can do.

Here's a place to start on the law, though I'm sure the lawyer types (Tim will probably respond first) can provide a link to the exact clause you're looking for.

Interesting information there.  That makes it sound like if I ask for accomidations in advanced, they should provide.  The show is 2 months away, so at least time is on my side!

[Gordon]

Can anyone provide an example of a show taped from the listening devices?  I thought that a phish show in 1995 from Madison Square Garden was circulating with this source, but I can;t find it anywhere.

But I definitely want to try it one day.

I have a Dylan or two that sound ok.  not the best mix and I think (could be wrong) that it's pretty compressed.

[fsulloway]

I believe some DMB tapers were doing this at one point. I read somewhere that it happened so much that finally decided to try and stop them.I don't remembet the whole story though.

[bgalizio]

I'm pretty sure that most of the "SBD" labeled recordings of the U2 Elevation Tour were recorded through ALD's.  The Cleveland matrix sounds pretty good to me.

I'll try calling the venue tonight or tomorrow and see what they say about providing an ALD for the show.  The taping aspect of it is just a novelty, since I have an actual need for the ALD!

[Patrick]

See, that's the difference.  I have no need for the device, so any involvment on my part would be lying.  Do you have to show medical proof of need for the listening device, or can you just obtain one by asking?


Datdork, what Dylan shows do you have with this source?

[bgalizio]

I just go to wherever the FM units are distributed and ask them for one.  If the person working there doesn't know me, they may ask why, in which case I just pop out my hearing aids (they're nice and small, fit way in the canal so you can't tell I'm wearing them unless you look closely).  I'm fairly young (graduate student), so I'm sure I get asked for proof more often than someone older.  My brother is an audiologist and has his own FM system, so he just lets them know he'd like to use his FM unit and asks them what frequency they're using.  If they don't have an ALD set-up, he brings his whole system and sets it up with the sound guy.

As far as sound quality goes, it depends on a million factors.  You have reception quality to think about.  I believe the source is most often from the SBD and sometimes from an overhanging mic.  Some venues mix them as the show "should" sound, while others pump the treble way up since most losses are high frequency.  With hearing aids in and using an ALD, the sound should be well balanced, as a good recording would be, but some people still insist on pumping the treble up.  I guess that works for hard of hearing people who don't have hearing aids.  But, like I said before, I usually just use them for between song banter unless it's a huge stadium venue (in which case I ask myself, "Why I am seeing a concert here?").

[Scuba Jeremy]

The answer to the ethical question of using hardware intended for the hard of hearing appears to be, "don't use the hardware if you do not need it". But I'm curious, if you have your own hardware, but are not hearing impaired, what then? Is it okay to tape from an ALD only if the taper is impaired? I would think that (ab)using FM signals roaming free through the air harms none. Taking hardware that is intended for the hearing impaired is bad karma, though I've never heard of a venue having every unit taken before a legitimate user could claim one. Maybe for a Sprinsteen show.

I don't have much of an issue with these kinds of recordings for bands that do not allow recording of any kind. For such bands, even well hidden microphones are considered contraband. If you have the means to listen in to the signals without taking from stock set aside for the hearing impared, why not? ... other than it would not sound as good as a set of microphones in the sweet spot.

This is just a pointless rant, that's all.

[bgalizio]

Taking hardware that is intended for the hearing impaired is bad karma, though I've never heard of a venue having every unit taken before a legitimate user could claim one. Maybe for a Sprinsteen show.

I have never encountered a situation in which all the FM units were taken.  Most often, I'm the only person using one.  Even at the theater, which I would consider more important for speech clarification than a concert, and where there's generally an older crowd, meaning more need for the ALDs, there have always been extra FM units.

Now, if at a concert all the FM units were taken, I would have to assume that some were going to people who would be using them for taping only.  That wouldn't make me too happy, but I'd reserve total judgement until I heard the quality of the tape .

[Gordon]

I believe some DMB tapers were doing this at one point. I read somewhere that it happened so much that finally decided to try and stop them.I don't remembet the whole story though.

they wer using some kind of device that picked up the in ear monitors that the guys were using.  made for a very crisp but bad tape imo.  It would pick up them talking to each other during the music etc.  I heard that one such show Dave ro somebody said "I know you can hear this.  fuck off." or something like that.

[nickgregory]

I believe some DMB tapers were doing this at one point. I read somewhere that it happened so much that finally decided to try and stop them.I don't remembet the whole story though.

they wer using some kind of device that picked up the in ear monitors that the guys were using. made for a very crisp but bad tape imo. It would pick up them talking to each other during the music etc. I heard that one such show Dave ro somebody said "I know you can hear this. fuck off." or something like that.

the band also got to the point where they had IEM scanners and went out in the audience during the show to find the guys getting the feed

[fsulloway]

I believe some DMB tapers were doing this at one point. I read somewhere that it happened so much that finally decided to try and stop them.I don't remembet the whole story though.

they wer using some kind of device that picked up the in ear monitors that the guys were using. made for a very crisp but bad tape imo. It would pick up them talking to each other during the music etc. I heard that one such show Dave ro somebody said "I know you can hear this. fuck off." or something like that.

the band also got to the point where they had IEM scanners and went out in the audience during the show to find the guys getting the feed

Ahh, that's right.It was the in ear monitors.. Wonder how they knew they were doing it in the first place though?Had they been doing it for a while and it finally got back to the band?

[nickgregory]

I think a couple started showing up in trading circles on the boards...doesnt take too long til the whole world knows about them then....

[bgalizio]

I talked to the venue today and they are going to have an ALD for me that night.  So, that's nice.  Now, do I tape or not?  I suppose I could plug the deck in and tape, while using the headphone jack on the MD for listening purposes.  That would kill two birds with one stone.  Will there be problems running from the headphone out of the FM unit to the line-in on the MD (I'm assuming I'll have to pump the levels up)?

[bgalizio]

Oh, one more question.  The ALD will be sourced in mono, which I prefer so I can just use one headphone and have one ear "open."  So, if I tape it with the borrowed MD, I suppose I could record in mono instead of SP mode then?

[NewHomebrew]

I would hate to see people who actually need these devices get a hard time because they were being abused for other purposes.  Esp when we can make nice recordings so many other ways.

[braweave]

I believe some DMB tapers were doing this at one point. I read somewhere that it happened so much that finally decided to try and stop them.I don't remembet the whole story though.

yep.. they broke it down at deer creek night 2 in 02.. they ripped through everyones bags at least 2x priar to the show and 1x during the show.. they got a lot of shit for it because they were very dis-respectful. one of my cables got unplugged and i believe it happened to someone else as well..

i asked them what they were looking for at one point and was told they were looking for a sure monitor reciever or the house issued listening devices.
aka iem and ald.

[Depechemode1993]

I have a few ALD recordings and most of them are very good. I have DM at Inglewood '98 both nights and its very good. isn't it supposed to be broadcasted at FM signals or something? also u2 at the Silverdome in '92 I think? I forgot the year. I would definately go for it.

[taperanonymous]

Pearl Jam Hartford 1996

Can anyone provide an example of a show taped from the listening devices?  I thought that a phish show in 1995 from Madison Square Garden was circulating with this source, but I can;t find it anywhere.

But I definitely want to try it one day.

[Frequincy]

I remember in recording school, the live sound part of the training, my instructor said he always shelved the patch with a high pass. I forget the frequency. He said he did it for this very reason. It ruined the recording, but the lister could enjoy the show, being as they felt the low end and the upper frequencies were what the devices were designed to reproduce.

[George]

Pearl Jam Hartford 1996

Can anyone provide an example of a show taped from the listening devices?  I thought that a phish show in 1995 from Madison Square Garden was circulating with this source, but I can;t find it anywhere.

But I definitely want to try it one day.

Way to go on bumping a 6 yr old thread   

[guitard]

Pearl Jam Hartford 1996

Can anyone provide an example of a show taped from the listening devices?  I thought that a phish show in 1995 from Madison Square Garden was circulating with this source, but I can;t find it anywhere.

But I definitely want to try it one day.

Way to go on bumping a 6 yr old thread   

Indeed~!  I somehow missed this the first time around. Interesting thread.  Thanks.