Author Topic: Lip of stage techniques? (Read 7206 times)

Since85 · « **on:** June 22, 2007, 06:05:29 PM »

Hi,

For those of you who do more than a bit of lip of stage microphone recording......

What polar pattern is most preferred, and with what type of positioning setup?

Will cardioids @ ORTF work well? Another pattern? What about hypers and positioning?

Lastly, how high do you want the stand to be? Obviously you do not want to block the band, but would, say 2.5 feet be sufficient?

Thanks!

terrapinj · « **Reply #1 on:** June 22, 2007, 06:37:26 PM »

for stage lip/onstage i have had really great results with ORTF - many people like to run XY as well but i've never really been much of a fan. you can probably get great results with most stereo techniques so don't be afraid to try something different. If you have the capabilities blumlein sounds really nice at the stage lip IMO. never run hypers at stage lip, but I have others have mixed results. Wide cards (sub card) or split omnis can be very nice depending how loud the crowd is gonna be

i usually try to set up so I am centered with the drum kit and go about waist high, maybe lower depending on sight lines. also, be aware that you will generally get minimal vocals, although you can sometimes pick up a decent bit from the monitors depending

Since85 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 22, 2007, 06:49:35 PM »

Great advice, +T and a big thanks!!

Patrick · « **Reply #3 on:** June 22, 2007, 06:57:32 PM »

ORTF, NOS, and Midside are all great configs to run stage lip. I'd stick with cards or sub cards, I've never really run hypers on stage but then again, I don't own hyper caps. You'll be getting a lot of potentially good sounding music from the stage and a card/subcard pattern run wider than usual can SMOKE if the situation is right for it.

Depending on how big/how high the stage is built, you'll want to keep your mics maybe a little higher than the amps/drums on stage. You don't want to be in the line of fire of a guitar amp, crash cymbal, anything for that matter. Keeping your mics a little bit above these sound sources will provide a much more tolerable mix.

Be careful of monitors. These can either ruin a tape or make it great. Most of the times they are nothing but loud and distorted speakers that do nothing but add uneccesary stage noise, and therefore making it hard to make a good tape.

Good luck!

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #4 on:** June 22, 2007, 06:59:34 PM »

I run Cards/DIN or ORTF depending on band/setup/venue

I tend to keep the mics about level to the top of the kick drum on teh drum set. about that high anyway. you want to be high enough to get over the stage monitors but not so high that you arent picking up some of the stage monitors as well

Teen Wolf Blitzer · « **Reply #5 on:** June 22, 2007, 07:22:44 PM »

Cards ORTF all the way baby unless your talking split omnis which sound great but only in full rooms from my experience.

bluevolvo · « **Reply #6 on:** June 22, 2007, 11:42:50 PM »

as usual depends on alot doesn't it?

i think i prefer 414's M/S on the lip and split omni's ["decca"] matrix - with a chic singer on acoustic

balou2 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 22, 2007, 11:51:13 PM »

While not a "standard" technique, I've gotten GREAT results with split cards. Often you'll have a fatty monitor setup dfc onstage, so I've opted to go 12" on either side and found some monumental sound. Just consider the size of the stage. Smaller stage = "bigger" sound, so you can split a little easier.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #8 on:** June 23, 2007, 12:40:44 AM »

I'll be different.
the closer I am to the source..the more i'm running some kind of coincident pattern. XY if farther back...(but close, close close to stage lip)...and even on stage.
blumlien or M-S smokes on stage. my favorite.

it depends on what you have for mics. Currently, having only cards and no stereo mic, if I"m lip or on stage, its XY at 110deg.
I'm of the opinion that coincident stereo recording yields the best sonic "images" in terms of sound location on playback. And since thats what I like... so thats how I run.

but honestly, when you are on top of the band like that, anything will sound good. Its about how good your stereo is, your ear is, and your experience w/your gear. A little time w/all of these factors and you'll have your own "go to" method.

try it all! set breaks are your friend.

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #9 on:** June 23, 2007, 01:54:21 AM »

Quote from: Nick's Picks on June 23, 2007, 12:40:44 AM

I'll be different.
the closer I am to the source..the more i'm running some kind of coincident pattern. XY if farther back...(but close, close close to stage lip)...and even on stage.
blumlien or M-S smokes on stage. my favorite.

it depends on what you have for mics. Currently, having only cards and no stereo mic, if I"m lip or on stage, its XY at 110deg.
I'm of the opinion that coincident stereo recording yields the best sonic "images" in terms of sound location on playback. And since thats what I like... so thats how I run.

but honestly, when you are on top of the band like that, anything will sound good. Its about how good your stereo is, your ear is, and your experience w/your gear. A little time w/all of these factors and you'll have your own "go to" method.

try it all! set breaks are your friend.

Nick, do you have any GREAT mod461/3>MMP recordings yet that I could hear? anything on archive.org perhaps that I could stream

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #10 on:** June 23, 2007, 09:03:15 AM »

nope. I've only used the mics twice. thats going to change soon though. I have a shitload of good shows coming up in July.
that DSO show came out pretty good, imo...and I could send you that if you'd like.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #11 on:** June 23, 2007, 09:04:09 AM »

Oh...and if you ever want to play w/my MR1. lemme know. I'd love to spread the joy of these sweet fucking boxes.

Gedit · « **Reply #12 on:** June 23, 2007, 02:19:17 PM »

i do a lot of stage lip recordings .. ORTF as mentioned above.

gratefulphish · « **Reply #13 on:** June 23, 2007, 03:49:28 PM »

I have found from doing many on stage recordings that the mic placement is more important than any particular configuration. The concept that mics need to be dead center, with a fixed pattern, just does not work in many small venue settings. If your stand ends up dead center, three feet from the drum kit, you are not going to be pleased, especially if the guitar amp is far left or right, with a bass player between the drums and guitar. The bass from both the bass drum and bass amp can just kill the guitar sound. I will frequently set up off-center in those situations, and adjust mic angles accordingly. As someone else mentioned above, I sometimes use two stands, and split the mics, particularly to avoid the center drum/bass issue. Again, depending on how shallow the stage is, and/or how close to the lip amps and drums are located, I will run at card when they are back further, but usually subcard the rest of the time.

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #14 on:** June 23, 2007, 04:27:03 PM »

Quote from: gratefulphish on June 23, 2007, 03:49:28 PM

I have found from doing many on stage recordings that the mic placement is more important than any particular configuration. The concept that mics need to be dead center, with a fixed pattern, just does not work in many small venue settings. If your stand ends up dead center, three feet from the drum kit, you are not going to be pleased, especially if the guitar amp is far left or right, with a bass player between the drums and guitar. The bass from both the bass drum and bass amp can just kill the guitar sound. I will frequently set up off-center in those situations, and adjust mic angles accordingly. As someone else mentioned above, I sometimes use two stands, and split the mics, particularly to avoid the center drum/bass issue. Again, depending on how shallow the stage is, and/or how close to the lip amps and drums are located, I will run at card when they are back further, but usually subcard the rest of the time.

totally agreed, i just give pattern names for reference. many times i have recorded onstage/stage-lip, I am not dead center in the middle of the stage. I setup where there is going to be an equal amount fo music coming into each mic. many times onstage mic setups look very weird, cause they are just that, they are not your typical DIN/DINa/ORTF setup usually. you just have to go with the layout of the stage/band and go from there.

Gedit · « **Reply #15 on:** June 23, 2007, 06:24:23 PM »

Quote from: Gedit on June 23, 2007, 02:19:17 PM

i do a lot of stage lip recordings .. ORTF as mentioned above.

i should have said i stage lip when i have a sbd patch or am running FOH and then matrix the sources.

danlynch · « **Reply #16 on:** February 25, 2008, 08:47:24 AM »

Quick question: tonight I will have the opportunity to run a pair of mics (DPA 4021s) from the stage lip, through the on-stage snake, to the board, where I will pull that line into the RCA aux of the Edirol, while running the KM150s FOB into the xlrs.

My question/problem, is powering the 4021s. Will the onstage snake have phantom power, or am I going to have to borrrow some gadget like the Denecke (DA_20?)?

Tim · « **Reply #17 on:** February 25, 2008, 09:17:48 AM »

the board should have phantom (even the cheapest boards do). So long as the channels you are using are connected to the board you will be fine.

If your mics will just be running from the snake back to the board position and the cables will not be plugged into the board you will need to supply phantom power.

The da-20 is a pre/ad. The ps-2 is their phantom power box. There are others, I'm sure you can find some in NYC.

aegert · « **Reply #18 on:** February 25, 2008, 09:19:16 AM »

Dan

You can also try putting the 150's at either end of the stage just inside the pa stacks, actually best just up against them, pointing out into the crowd above the crowds head.. Matrix that with the sbd pull and you might be surprised...

A

danlynch · « **Reply #19 on:** February 26, 2008, 01:46:34 AM »

Quote from: aegert on February 25, 2008, 09:19:16 AM

Dan

You can also try putting the 150's at either end of the stage just inside the pa stacks, actually best just up against them, pointing out into the crowd above the crowds head.. Matrix that with the sbd pull and you might be surprised...

A

Thanks both of you for the information/advice.

I ended up doing almost exactly this approach, using some board feed to get more vocals. The results are amazing.

Distant Jay · « **Reply #20 on:** February 27, 2008, 04:05:20 PM »

what about healy method, anybody ever try it. I was thinking of trying it on sunday or at least using omnis no matter what.

BC · « **Reply #21 on:** February 27, 2008, 04:16:49 PM »

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,98079.msg1307087.html#msg1307087

might be some useful info in there

BlingFree · « **Reply #22 on:** March 02, 2008, 10:42:12 AM »

http://www.archive.org/details/ToubabKrewe2007-09-12.onstageTascamPE120.flac16

onstage omnis

Source: onstage, 2' left of center, 1 foot high, spread approx. 145°
Lineage: H320> USB> SoundForge 9 (tracking, +3dB volume)> FLAC FrontEnd
Taped by: Scott T.

this put out a stellar recording

SmokinJoe · « **Reply #23 on:** March 02, 2008, 11:24:37 PM »

LSD2 Mid/Side... http://www.archive.org/details/delf2008-02-22.lsd2.flac16f

Grab the last track "rest of set 2" and put on some headphones.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #24 on:** March 03, 2008, 06:39:50 AM »

wow..that sounds awesome Joe.

Shawn · « **Reply #25 on:** March 03, 2008, 10:28:09 AM »

Quote from: gratefulphish on June 23, 2007, 03:49:28 PM

I have found from doing many on stage recordings that the mic placement is more important than any particular configuration. The concept that mics need to be dead center, with a fixed pattern, just does not work in many small venue settings. If your stand ends up dead center, three feet from the drum kit, you are not going to be pleased, especially if the guitar amp is far left or right, with a bass player between the drums and guitar. The bass from both the bass drum and bass amp can just kill the guitar sound. I will frequently set up off-center in those situations, and adjust mic angles accordingly.

this is great advice. being DFC at a perfect right angle to the stage-lip is rarely the best location when makign a stage-lip recording. Some times moving a few feet off center and angling the mics a bit can make a huge difference in the final product.

Quote from: Distant Jay on February 27, 2008, 04:05:20 PM

what about healy method, anybody ever try it. I was thinking of trying it on sunday or at least using omnis no matter what.

I have once, and I was unimpressed. I've generally been unimpressed with healy method omnis. I'd rather j disk or split them myself.

jkbyram · « **Reply #26 on:** March 03, 2008, 01:34:19 PM »

here is one i did last weekend where i was centered on the drums about 3 feet away at 2' high. the rest of the amps were in a semicircle around the drums so dead center was my best bet to avoid any one amp on the side being to loud. here are some pictures of the setup in action. the recording came out fantastic. http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,99885.0.html this was a galactic side project.

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=513569

Distant Jay · « **Reply #27 on:** March 07, 2008, 04:51:42 PM »

tried it and I think healy method sucks. Thanks for the advice. You were right.

heyitsmejess · « **Reply #28 on:** March 08, 2008, 12:58:00 PM »

http://www.archive.org/details/rumpkemb2008-02-01

very quick and basic ( i was late getting there).

omnis 17cm apart, facing straight up, at the lip of the stage.

comments wanted.....please!