Taperssection.com

Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: drfunkenstein2k on September 21, 2020, 03:55:13 AM

Title: Rig on a budget
Post by: drfunkenstein2k on September 21, 2020, 03:55:13 AM
I was always the kid asking to be patched in with my Sony-D8 DAT

I know have a Zoom Hn4 Pro
I have a few questions

1. quality mics for a budget price?
2. do i need a preamp? zoom has a built it preamp is it enough?

any other recommendations?

please and thank you!
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: heathen on September 21, 2020, 12:53:34 PM
How much is your budget?  Also will all the accessories (mic stand, cables, windscreens) need to fit within that budget?
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: drfunkenstein2k on September 22, 2020, 03:57:29 AM
1000 usd
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: heathen on September 22, 2020, 10:14:47 AM
Go on Live Music Archive and listen to as many recordings as you can, preferably of the types of bands you plan to record.  Take note of the gear used in the recordings that sound best to you.  If you notice a trend of specific mics sounding the best, shoot for those.  Let your ears decide, not what other people think.  And if they're above your budget now just keep saving...it's not like there are a lot of shows to record now anyway.
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: voltronic on September 22, 2020, 12:10:38 PM
Another question: What kinds of music are you recording, and in what types of locations?
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: daspyknows on September 22, 2020, 12:40:47 PM
Another question: What kinds of music are you recording, and in what types of locations?

This is the first question to ask once a budget is decided IMHO.  Will it be 100% open taping, some open some steath or 100% stealth would result in 3 completely different rigs.
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: perks on September 22, 2020, 12:41:06 PM
If I was in the OP's shoes (and of course I once was) I would be looking for used gear that holds its value so that he/she has the ability to resell the gear if they want to try something different or when they are ready to upgrade their gear. For $1000 USD you can certainly put together a solid rig that may be all the gear you need to accomplish your goals.

While I do agree that doing some listening on archive.org can be helpful in making a selection. Yet I would take this information with a grain of salt as this method of research does not account for many of the variables that can make a recording sound great or sound terrible. Just as a for instance when listening to a random show on archive.org you don't know if the room always sounds terrible or if it has the potential to sound great under the correct circumstances. Or maybe the taper did not set up their mics in the best spot in the room and while the gear worked as designed the recording is less than optimal.

If I had $1k to build a rig I would keep the Zoom in the signal path for now and put that $$ to work on mics and powering those mics. Used DPA 406X's do pop up in the yard sale for $500 and then you would be looking at purchasing a batterbox or a preamp to power those mics. Right now there is a Shure FP-24 in the YS and I believe there is also a Naiant preamp available both are under $300. Paying attention in the Yard Sale to new For Sale offers will certainly land you a decent preamp or battery box. Church Audio and Naiant have sold a lot of gear to tapers over the years and their products do frequently pop up in the YS for a good low budget option. I think the DPA 406x's would be the highest quality microphones that fit your budget but you have to live with 100% omnidirectional recordings and that may not be what you want. Otherwise I'd look at putting together an Audio Technica 853 rig which is another good low budget mic and it gives you the option of purchasing capsules that use different mic patterns so you could figure out what mic pattern works best for your recordings. Paying attention to ebay is another good option for the gear I mentioned. I personally would rather buy used equipment off a taper than ebay but there are great deals to be had in ebay auctions yet you do have to take into consideration the risk associated with purchasing electronics.

Good luck!



Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: DavidPuddy on September 22, 2020, 12:52:41 PM
Another option is getting 2 used akg ck61 caps and nbobs/pfa, which should be doable with that budget. These are a 'standard cardioid microphone and one that many tapers have used for 30+ years. I have a pair of them and their omni and hyper cardioid siblings, the ck62 and ck63 respectively. The cardioid ck61 will get you a nicely balanced recording if set in the right spot.

I wouldn't bother with buying the microphone bodies at this point. The nbob active cables are made by two guys here on the forum and they're a top quality product.

The Zoom preamps should be adequate for now. As you gain experience, you may want to upgrade to better preamps.
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: heathen on September 22, 2020, 01:28:35 PM
While I do agree that doing some listening on archive.org can be helpful in making a selection. Yet I would take this information with a grain of salt as this method of research does not account for many of the variables that can make a recording sound great or sound terrible. Just as a for instance when listening to a random show on archive.org you don't know if the room always sounds terrible or if it has the potential to sound great under the correct circumstances. Or maybe the taper did not set up their mics in the best spot in the room and while the gear worked as designed the recording is less than optimal.

The more shows (or even just parts of shows...it's not necessary to listen to the whole concert for this purpose) one listens to, though, the less impact those outliers have. 
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: voltronic on September 22, 2020, 07:24:33 PM
If I was in the OP's shoes (and of course I once was) I would be looking for used gear that holds its value so that he/she has the ability to resell the gear if they want to try something different or when they are ready to upgrade their gear. For $1000 USD you can certainly put together a solid rig that may be all the gear you need to accomplish your goals.

While I do agree that doing some listening on archive.org can be helpful in making a selection. Yet I would take this information with a grain of salt as this method of research does not account for many of the variables that can make a recording sound great or sound terrible. Just as a for instance when listening to a random show on archive.org you don't know if the room always sounds terrible or if it has the potential to sound great under the correct circumstances. Or maybe the taper did not set up their mics in the best spot in the room and while the gear worked as designed the recording is less than optimal.

If I had $1k to build a rig I would keep the Zoom in the signal path for now and put that $$ to work on mics and powering those mics. Used DPA 406X's do pop up in the yard sale for $500 and then you would be looking at purchasing a batterbox or a preamp to power those mics. Right now there is a Shure FP-24 in the YS and I believe there is also a Naiant preamp available both are under $300. Paying attention in the Yard Sale to new For Sale offers will certainly land you a decent preamp or battery box. Church Audio and Naiant have sold a lot of gear to tapers over the years and their products do frequently pop up in the YS for a good low budget option. I think the DPA 406x's would be the highest quality microphones that fit your budget but you have to live with 100% omnidirectional recordings and that may not be what you want. Otherwise I'd look at putting together an Audio Technica 853 rig which is another good low budget mic and it gives you the option of purchasing capsules that use different mic patterns so you could figure out what mic pattern works best for your recordings. Paying attention to ebay is another good option for the gear I mentioned. I personally would rather buy used equipment off a taper than ebay but there are great deals to be had in ebay auctions yet you do have to take into consideration the risk associated with purchasing electronics.

Good luck!

This is all solid advice.  Much as I love my DPAs, I would strongly recommend against buying them as your only mics for the short term, unless you know really know how to use them and can ensure you will always be in a location where they perform their best.

I am a classical / acoustic recordist.  Even though I am usually in auditoriums and churches with relatively quiet audiences, can usually place my stand up high right behind the conductor, etc., I definitely cannot use my 4061s for every concert.  While the may not have the highest sensitivity, they are ruthless with picking up any noise from the audience / house you didn't want to capture (especially the HVAC hum you didn't notice during the concert).  iZotope RX is almost always required when I run them, even if the hall seemed silent at the time.

You have to be careful about placement in very reverberant spaces, because they will grab tons of the room sound.  For acoustic recording, they usually need EQ correction if used with the stock short boost grids unless they are covered by clothing or beyond the critical distance from the sound source (85% direct-to-reflected sound ratio).

Then you have to get powering adapters for them or have Jon/Naiant build you a set of PFAs.

Bottom line: They are absolute magic when the right combination of factors come together, but there is definitely a learning curve with them and they are not the best in every situation.


Still waiting to hear about what OP is recording, but I think the AT853 will get you pretty far.  There is also the Line Audio CM3 (now CM4) which I have found to be the most forgiving in terms of placement.  Naiant makes solid mics also. The AKG option David mentions is very good.  Avoid Church Audio.
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: drfunkenstein2k on September 23, 2020, 03:34:09 AM
I do believe in paying for quality.

I am recording 100% allowed situations. A lot of Orchestra music.
Also, Phish when i make it to them.
Currently i am in china.

Phish 11-22-1997 - Hampton Coliseum, Hampton, VA
Schoeps CMC641 > Sonosax SX-M2 > Sony SBM-1 @44.1kHz
Front row/center  OTS, by Craig Hillwig

to me this is the holy grail! this show is crisp and sounds great!
I am into the crisp sound.

but the schoeps are crazy expensive...... but tbh i think about making the dive sometimes.....

also are capsule mics the way to go? is this due to the various combinations it can allow?

i see people selling "paired" mics , does this have an advantage to buying one mic then another mic later?

i use the zoom H4n Pro for recording.... do i need another preamp for better sound?

SUGGESTED MICS?

SUGGESTED PREAMPS?
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: drfunkenstein2k on September 23, 2020, 03:44:49 AM
Another option is getting 2 used akg ck61 caps and nbobs/pfa, which should be doable with that budget. These are a 'standard cardioid microphone and one that many tapers have used for 30+ years. I have a pair of them and their omni and hyper cardioid siblings, the ck62 and ck63 respectively. The cardioid ck61 will get you a nicely balanced recording if set in the right spot.

I wouldn't bother with buying the microphone bodies at this point. The nbob active cables are made by two guys here on the forum and they're a top quality product.

The Zoom preamps should be adequate for now. As you gain experience, you may want to upgrade to better preamps.

could u explain more please? If i got the aky ck61 dont i need the body for them?

ok did some reading hope i am right here

capsule > active cables > preamp > recorder?

where do you buy active cables?
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: jerryfreak on September 23, 2020, 05:22:29 AM
the following rig can be had for under $2K

a used pair of mk4 capsules
nbob active cables
naiant IPA
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: fotoralf.be on September 23, 2020, 06:28:42 AM
Bottom line: They are absolute magic when the right combination of factors come together, but there is definitely a learning curve with them and they are not the best in every situation.

If only there were cardoids with the same sensitivity, low noise and bass response.

Ralf
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: voltronic on September 23, 2020, 06:34:44 AM
Bottom line: They are absolute magic when the right combination of factors come together, but there is definitely a learning curve with them and they are not the best in every situation.

If only there were cardoids with the same sensitivity, low noise and bass response.

Ralf

I assume you mean the 4080.  I have no experience with them, and you don't see them on the used market that often compared to 4060.  Gutbucket is the person I would ask about the directional DPA lavs.
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: aaronji on September 23, 2020, 08:20:14 AM
The 4080s don't have anywhere near the same bass response as the 4060s, although noise and sensitivity are similar. [EDIT: They are a lot bigger, too.]
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: heathen on September 23, 2020, 09:33:05 AM
I do believe in paying for quality.

I am recording 100% allowed situations. A lot of Orchestra music.
Also, Phish when i make it to them.
Currently i am in china.

Being in China you might want to check out the B9Audio mics.  There is a thread about them on here and the creator of the mics posts here.  I don't have any personal experience with those mics, but they're certainly worth your time to at least look into.  There are definitely samples of them used in orchestral settings.
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: DavidPuddy on September 23, 2020, 10:08:38 AM
Another option is getting 2 used akg ck61 caps and nbobs/pfa, which should be doable with that budget. These are a 'standard cardioid microphone and one that many tapers have used for 30+ years. I have a pair of them and their omni and hyper cardioid siblings, the ck62 and ck63 respectively. The cardioid ck61 will get you a nicely balanced recording if set in the right spot.

I wouldn't bother with buying the microphone bodies at this point. The nbob active cables are made by two guys here on the forum and they're a top quality product.

The Zoom preamps should be adequate for now. As you gain experience, you may want to upgrade to better preamps.

could u explain more please? If i got the aky ck61 dont i need the body for them?

ok did some reading hope i am right here

capsule > active cables > preamp > recorder?

where do you buy active cables?

You're correct: capsules > active cables > preamp > recorder. With this setup, you don't need the microphone bodies as the XLR adapters and cable take the place of the body in a much smaller form factor (with no noticeable sound impairment).

Here's a picture of my setup:

https://imgur.com/a/ikvTdpx

On the right side are the AKG ck61 capsules, connected to the "nbob" active cables and the XLR phantom power adapters on the left side.

Here are the links for the cables:

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=168809.0

And the XLR phantom power adapters:

https://naiant.com/studio-electronics-products/inline-devices/pfa-phantom-power-adaptor/

Send a private message to user "schoepsnbox" and he will get you sorted out when you're ready.

The ck61 capsules should be able to be purchased here in the Yard Sale, if you post a wanted thread.

EDIT: Here's a picture of another possible setup that a few here use. It's capsules > active cables > "babynbox" > Sony PCM-A10. The babynbox powers the microphone capsules only - the recorder preamp is used instead of an outboard unit. It's not within your budget, but I thought I would show you the next level up. This setup can be applied to AKG, Schoeps, Gefell, etc. SD card included in the picture for scale.

https://imgur.com/a/a1aRy7h
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: fotoralf.be on September 23, 2020, 10:18:38 AM
Being in China you might want to check out the B9Audio mics.

Until further notice from Peking, B9Audio are still in Taiwan. ;-)

Ralf
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: MakersMarc on September 23, 2020, 10:35:42 AM
with that budget, for 100% open taping, I'd pick up a pair of used Busmans and a Shure FP24 or MP-2. all the patterns, great mic, great pre. And a few bucks left over for cables. This rig punches way above its price. 90% Schoeps for a fraction of the price.
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: heathen on September 23, 2020, 11:26:53 AM
Being in China you might want to check out the B9Audio mics.

Until further notice from Peking, B9Audio are still in Taiwan. ;-)

Ralf

Damn, I'm the ignorant American.  My apologies.
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: voltronic on September 23, 2020, 06:42:27 PM
The 4080s don't have anywhere near the same bass response as the 4060s, although noise and sensitivity are similar. [EDIT: They are a lot bigger, too.]

No, they certainly do not.  I just looked at the specs and see they are rated 20-20k, but -5 dB at 100 Hz.  These are probably only suitable for their intended purpose as a lav mic.
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: Gutbucket on September 23, 2020, 07:43:47 PM
I'd have to check again, but I believe the 4080 cardioids have a similar response to the 4098 supercards I use. When initially testing them at a couple amplified shows I determined 4098 can work acceptably if combined with EQ to boost the low end (recognizing that not everyone wants to do that) and that in an otherwise overly boomy/bassy venue with too much subwoofing the native response worked about right on its own.  It's smooth and EQ-able, but not a flat overall response, so may not be what or most folks are looking for as a taping pair. 

My intent all along was to use 4098s in combination with 4061 omnis, which is a combination I'm very pleased with that provides a well balanced overall response. 

I employ 4060 omnis for classical recording and have not used the 4098 for that.
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: WiFiJeff on September 23, 2020, 10:11:20 PM
I'd have to check again, but I believe the 4080 cardioids have a similar response to the 4098 supercards I use. When initially testing them at a couple amplified shows I determined 4098 can work acceptably if combined with EQ to boost the low end (recognizing that not everyone wants to do that) and that in an otherwise overly boomy/bassy venue with too much subwoofing the native response worked about right on its own.  It's smooth and EQ-able, but not a flat overall response, so may not be what or most folks are looking for as a taping pair. 

My intent all along was to use 4098s in combination with 4061 omnis, which is a combination I'm very pleased with that provides a well balanced overall response. 

I employ 4060 omnis for classical recording and have not used the 4098 for that.

My MO, recording 4-channel with 4060s paired with 4081s and low-passing the 4060s in post, addresses this.  But it's not a low budget rig!  Great on opera, if we ever have that again (Met just cancelled the whole damn season).
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: illconditioned on September 24, 2020, 10:36:01 PM
Get a stereo pair Beyerdynamic MC930.Can come as low as $800 new price.  Matched pair.  Look on Ebay or competitive retailer.

Always sound great, excellent for what we do;
Also, someone selling AKG shotgun pair with shockmounts, $500 in the yardsale.
Lots of options now.
Title: Re: Rig on a budget
Post by: steve4134 on August 20, 2021, 05:45:58 PM
I 2nd the MC930's still running mine and cant justify the next jump in price to the next level of mics because they sound so good. Here are some links to what i recorded.

Thank you

Steve

https://archive.org/details/jm2010-08-07.beyermc-930.naiant.flac16
https://archive.org/details/JohnMayer2013-08-16.beyer.mc930.naiant.flac16
https://archive.org/details/VanessaCarlton2015-12-08.flac24