Topic: Silver or Copper - curiosity

[balou2]

I don't remember my chemistry as well as I should, but there has been so much discussion about the silver clad cables, I wondered how they test against copper cables?

From a sound perspective, is there a noticeable difference in a copper cable versus a silver cable?  Hypothetically, imagine two runs of cable with the same interconnect pieces and same equipment...just the different cable.  Where do the differences lie?  Guage/thickness could play a part depending on size of signal I would imagine. 

Just curious at this point

[thegreatgumbino]

There's some good responses on the differences in this thread:  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=36812.0

[Chuck]

Also:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=38270.0

[it-goes-to-eleven]

The teflon insulation is a major factor in the lower capacitance of the silver cable.  I'd like to try some pure copper with the same teflon jacket but the cable isn't as available.

[balou2]

The teflon insulation is a major factor in the lower capacitance of the silver cable.  I'd like to try some pure copper with the same teflon jacket but the cable isn't as available.

I believe that is what makes the Atlas cables so good.  Great cabling with great insulation.  I wish I had a set of each to run a benchtest.

[cshepherd]

The melting point of Teflon (Polytetrafluoride Epoxy...PTFE) is 327 degrees.  That much heat destroys the purity of single crystal copper.  Atlas developed a type of Teflon called Fluorinated Ethylene Propylene (FEP), which melts at 275 degrees.  They use it in their top-level cable OCC (single crystal copper) cables, which we find to be rather neutral.  In our reference system, the teflon-coated cables make me drool.  Both bass and treble extention is extremely focused and clear, which makes room for a magical midrange.  It's almost psychedelic at times.  They can also show you more than you want to know when used on inferior gear.  One of these days, we're going to bring in the teflon/copper mic cable, the Elektra All Cu.  A 4m set retails for $1440.  I could only imagine what they would sound like between a set of u89's and a V2.  We just finished burning in our 1m Elektra demos.  Their maiden voyage will be at the Sons of Champlin show here in Eugene between the V2 and 722.

Chris

[RebelRebel]

First, silver is the best electrical conductor. Copper is 2nd in line. Silver conducts 7% better than copper.

Teflon Jacketing.. Teflon is inert.  Some other materials are not.. teflon is used during surgery for this reason as it won't react chemically and wreak havoc.

Teflon has been proven to be the best insulator for wire. Thats why the military uses it. That's why RF cables use it. Other materials counteract electron flow, especially so at high freq. ranges.


Mr. Jim Willams(the modification wiz) uses teflon coated silver wire in his projects. has been for years.
He (and others) have said that it sounds better than Kimber PBJ stock (teflon/copper) , which is much  more usd per foot.

When in doubt, find out what the pros with years of experience use.Then find out why.  Thats what I do. Havent been dissapointed yet with advice ive gotten this way.

[F.O.Bean]

ive been QUITE happy w/ my silver-coated copper cables i got from marc kim(leedeggy) and toddr is using the same military-grade cable and love the sound of those as well

[cshepherd]

First, silver is the best electrical conductor. Copper is 2nd in line. Silver conducts 7% better than copper.

Teflon Jacketing.. Teflon is inert.  Some other materials are not.. teflon is used during surgery for this reason as it won't react chemically and wreak havoc.

Teflon has been proven to be the best insulator for wire. Thats why the military uses it. That's why RF cables use it. Other materials counteract electron flow, especially so at high freq. ranges.


Mr. Jim Willams(the modification wiz) uses teflon coated silver wire in his projects. has been for years.
He (and others) have said that it sounds better than Kimber PBJ stock (teflon/copper) , which is much  more usd per foot.

When in doubt, find out what the pros with years of experience use.Then find out why.  Thats what I do. Havent been dissapointed yet with advice ive gotten this way.

Hi Teddy,
The Military-spec silver-clad copper cables probably do sound better than the Kimber PBJ.  I have not heard the PBJ's specifically, but I have listened to some Kimber KCAG 'Hyper-Pure' Silver IC's with a Teflon dielectric ($300 for 1m set). They were compared to the JPS Ultraconductor, Van den Hul's Integration Hybrid and some IC's from Tributaries (can't remember which ones).  All were comparably priced.  It was a few years ago, but I distinctly remember Dale and I both liked the KCAG's the least.  They had a notably bad sound. 

The Kimber PBJ's, at $68 for a 1m set, are some of the cheapest cables on the market with a Teflon dielectric.  If the more expensive KCAG is any indication, the PBJ's are, at best, on the same level as cables you'd find at Circuit City or Best Buy.  There's a Soundstage review that says the PBJ interconnects' performance falls somewhere between the Canare star-quad ($26) and DH Labs BL-1 IC ($99).  The PBJ's are a really poor example of what's possible with copper and a Teflon dielectric.  Any cable in my closet (with or without Teflon) would outperform the PBJ.

Chris

[Nick's Picks]

This is the stuff I try to use when at all possible.
it requres that I braid and shield it myself, but the stuff rocks.

http://tinyurl.com/er9zu

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I haven't done any listening tests with the 1804a but I have a fair bit of it and have made many dozens of recordings with it. It is a very fine cable at 28awg. It is so flexible that it is easy to kink. Sleeving it with 1/8" techflex fixes that and makes it quite nice.

Similar to many, the milspec quad cable I use is 24awg and the milspec single pair is 20awg.  Aside from the awg, the 1804a has polypropylene insulation.  That may be a greater factor than the small awg.  John Risch has a fair bit to say about insulation choice in his excellent DIY cable articles. I believe he prefers copper over silver.

Please do some tests and let us know! 

I made a nice pair of mic splitters with 1804a. They've been great for doing gear comps. At some point I'd like to borrow a second V3 and do some mic cable comps. I have a bunch I'd like to do.

FWIW, Schoeps uses copper for their active cables.  It is a custom cable that is manufactured for them (3 conductor plus shield). They could have specified silver or whatever but they chose not to. And as Doug points out, some of the engineers at the schoeps factory have incredibly well trained ears..

Doug also points out that some silver cable is terribly bright and sounds like ass. Though maybe that helps when recording muddy rooms?

[momule]

is there a difference sonically between military spec silver clad copper cabling that marc used and toddr is currently using; and belden 1804a mini starquad silver clad copper cable, when used as analog interconnects?

my jk labs active cabling is made from 1804a and I also run toddr military spec cable for some of the other analog interconnects in my rig.  I'm wondering if switching to all 1804a cabling would make drastic difference or not. 

Not that I can tell.
I have run Todd & Marc's cables. I also made/ran a pair of 1804's for over a year (now sold to Kcmule).  I also picked up 100' of white 4 conductor silver clad white Teflon cable that Marc and Todd use to make there’s. And made a couple pair of cables that i have been running for about 6 months now.

IMO I like the 1804a the best so far. Not only for acoustics but for size and durability. If you were to leave the Teflon coated wire un covered I have a feeling it would be wasted in no time. As the Teflon shell is not real durable (Imo)
 

[balou2]

So I found a really great page describing the process of making and preparing copper for cables, and at the bottom of the comparison, the answer to my question was RIGHT THERE, and makes quite a bit of sense:

• Good HF dynamics are a characteristic of silver plated copper conductors. Silver plated copper can make a dull sounding system come to life, but at the expense of good quality bass or LF delivery. Silver plated copper cables can also prove fatiguing over prolonged listening periods. Silver plated copper, or cables employing two materials of differing resistance, are best avoided for audio interconnects and speaker cables.
  

So, after reading the statement, then looking at the various calculations of the metals in preparation for OUR uses, it would seem that the mixture of the silver and copper in itself could impose impurity.  That is not to say that the quality is poor, especially since I've heard a TON of great tapes with the leegeddy/ToddR cables, but merely to answer my question when comparing this grade of cable to a TPC, OFC or OCC copper cable.

Thanks folks!

If you're interested in the page, it's http://hifi.org.uk/tech/?view=s3

[RebelRebel]

From my friend Mr. Vollmer:


Hello Mr. Bullard,

there is a lot of nonsense about cables. Cables have no mystic secrets
- it is pure physics.
As even for hard core purists the audio frequency range ends somewhere
below 50kHz (I would be glad if I could hear 20kHz ..), we are far away
from real high frequency where special characteristics like skin effect
etc. have an influence. So we can simply watch resistance, voltage and
current.

Silver may be a better conductor than copper but it is very affected by
corrosion. Also a pure silver wire will break when you bend it. On the
other side the difference will result in some milli-ohm. The
microphones have output impedances of some ten ohm. So you may choose copper or
silver or gold - you will get no audible difference. Other electrical
and mechanical properties are much more important.


We use a very special copper alloy reinforced with Kevlar fabers. It is
made for SCHOEPS only and offers mechanical advantages (elasticity at
cold temperatures, high tensile strength and no twisting when you hang
your microphone and the room gets warm)
Best wishes

Bernhard Vollmer
SCHOEPS GmbH

[bgalizio]

errrr uhhmmm,.... no wonder shemps are so colored?
Has he run any test tones thru quality playback lately? or sat in front of an acoustic bass? The hutchins bass carries 38hz, naturally, and its easily heard (and felt).

From my friend Mr. Vollmer:


Hello Mr. Bullard,

there is a lot of nonsense about cables. Cables have no mystic secrets
- it is pure physics.
As even for hard core purists the audio frequency range ends somewhere
below 50kHz (I would be glad if I could hear 20kHz ..), we are far away
from real high frequency where special characteristics like skin effect
etc. have an influence. So we can simply watch resistance, voltage and
current.

Silver may be a better conductor than copper but it is very affected by
corrosion. Also a pure silver wire will break when you bend it. On the
other side the difference will result in some milli-ohm. The
microphones have output impedances of some ten ohm. So you may choose copper or
silver or gold - you will get no audible difference. Other electrical
and mechanical properties are much more important.


We use a very special copper alloy reinforced with Kevlar fabers. It is
made for SCHOEPS only and offers mechanical advantages (elasticity at
cold temperatures, high tensile strength and no twisting when you hang
your microphone and the room gets warm)
Best wishes

Bernhard Vollmer
SCHOEPS GmbH

It looks like he's talking high frequency (20-50kHz), not the lows.

[RebelRebel]

Id appreciate it if you kept your rude jabs at religion in the appropriate forum... Respect is a two way street.

there are things we cannot explain. There are things science cannot explain. Science is only mans best guess at any given time. Man is not perfect..therefore, science is not .
not to say that your OPINION isnt valued, but it aint the last word.....

So....Klaus Heyne says he hears differences in Cables..is he right or wrong? If two cables are made out of different materials, how could they NOT sound different? I dont buy into the whole snake oil thing..but I do belive that cables sound different. Seems logical to me.



Thanks.

• Good HF dynamics are a characteristic of silver plated copper conductors. Silver plated copper can make a dull sounding system come to life, but at the expense of good quality bass or LF delivery. Silver plated copper cables can also prove fatiguing over prolonged listening periods. Silver plated copper, or cables employing two materials of differing resistance, are best avoided for audio interconnects and speaker cables.
  

Sorry to kill your darlings, but this is pure BS made up by half-scientic people trying to make you bring out your wallet. The science is on the same level as that used by the creationists trying to prove that God actually created the world in 6 days.

In real-world double blind tests of very potent, scientifically proved, chemicals used as pharmaceuticals the companys are often happy if the substance is double as effiicient as a the old sugar pill. Very often the sugar pill works as well and out goes multiple millions of dollars of research money.

Much of the cables are like sugar pills, if you believe in them they work. If not, it is impossible to hear any difference.

Gunnar

[ghellquist]

Id appreciate it if you kept your rude jabs at religion in the appropriate forum... Respect is a two way street.

I had a very bad day yesterday. As was reflected in my posts.

Please do not take offense at my mistaken / misguided jab at religion. These should be kept in a more private discussion. As for the rest, I guess I should get what I deserve.

Gunnar