Topic: On-stage thoughts, and some "why's"

[balou2]

Hey folks,
Searched the archives for on-stage discussions...there's a bit out there, but not specific to what I'm looking for 'cause the answers are so subjective.  I'm looking for a little more objectivity on this one.

- Is there a best mic placement to use on-stage?  Yeh...subjective (e.g. room, stage size, mic type etc...) but there's got to be someone who has experimented enough with all the configs to say "damn it...the ____ set up yields the best dynamic field and sound stage".

- I've done XY, NOS, DIN and ORTF and continually find good aspects of each.  Am I SOL on this one, and just need to do what works?

Secondly, when it comes to all the set-up configs, how much difference does the spacing actually make?  i.e., how much difference will 3cm make in a DIN setup.

To clarify, spacing takes place from the center of the capsule...right?

Yeh...lot's of questions.  I haven't totally botched a tape yet, but I'm curious if I could improve anywhere.

Mike

[Tim]

ime the best onstage placement is split omni's, followed by blumlein.

beyond that my ears really like near-coincident techniques more than x/y. it really depends on what you like though and what the stage setup is like, every time out with onstage is different. I know that's not the answer you're looking for but you're just going to have to try different things and see what works in certain situations and what doesn't... onstage is really a lot of trial and error. It's really going to be up to you to decide what you like.

spacing takes place from the center of the capsule, that is correct.

spacing effects the width of the soundstage, a wider spacing will create a larger soundstage, 3cm isn't a lot but if you're using hypercards (a narrower pattern than cards) it can make a bigger difference.

[Swampy]

Mic placement on-stage really depends on how the band sets up, it would be impossible to say one is better than the other. If you had a drum set and a percussion set on the far ends of the stage and you ran ORTF, it would probably be all drums, but if you had drums and percussion in the middle and amps on the side, ortf might sound great. Spacing (along with angle) has a lot to do with how much stereo image there is (just FYI, 90* 3cm wouldnt be "DIN" DIN is 20cm 90*) I imagine that 3cm 90* would sound a lot like xy, which onstage has pretty good spacing. 

[bhtoque]

Hey folks,
Searched the archives for on-stage discussions...there's a bit out there, but not specific to what I'm looking for 'cause the answers are so subjective.  I'm looking for a little more objectivity on this one.

- Is there a best mic placement to use on-stage?  Yeh...subjective (e.g. room, stage size, mic type etc...) but there's got to be someone who has experimented enough with all the configs to say "damn it...the ____ set up yields the best dynamic field and sound stage".

Sorry to say that there are as many best ways to do it as there are bands and stages. I've run just about every 2 mic config, and some 4 mic ones, and nothing works 'best' in every situation. Cards DIN or ORTF might be said to be the 'safest' config. and 'as far away from the drums but still with everything between the mics' is probably the same for placement, but one size does not fit all.

- I've done XY, NOS, DIN and ORTF and continually find good aspects of each.  Am I SOL on this one, and just need to do what works?

Exactly. Knowing your gear, and knowing the band/music are a huge help, but it all comes down to a very educated guess.

Secondly, when it comes to all the set-up configs, how much difference does the spacing actually make?  i.e., how much difference will 3cm make in a DIN setup.

To clarify, spacing takes place from the center of the capsule...right?

On stage, a little less spacing is better than a little more, but there's a very small chance you'll hear a centimeter or two either way. I could be wrong, but center of the capsule is how I understand it.

Yeh...lot's of questions.  I haven't totally botched a tape yet, but I'm curious if I could improve anywhere.

Mike

It takes trial and error. Experiment on opening acts you don't care about. Set up at home and tape your stereo. Tape with other tapers and plan on getting a copy from them so you can push the limits. And have fun.

JAson

[balou2]

Both of these are true.

Tim, you're right.  I've done about 25 on-stage recordings and it really is trial and error.  I have not done the split omni method.  I've got 6 mics in my arsenal...2 Neumann SKM 184s, 2 Nak (w/ CP-1,2 and 4) and AKGs.  I could easily do the split omni with the Naks.  Maybe I'll tray that, and include and XY Nak setup in the middle.

Stage size is generally small.  Facing stage, we're looking at about 25 wide, 10 feet deep most often (though sometimes larger stages are played).  Vibrophone stage left, with keys behine ( same player...plays one or t'other), left/center is lead guitar (amp in back), drums center/back, dfc is lead vocals (sometimes), right/center is Hammond (to which lead singer goes back and forth from), stage right is horn section (brass, sax).

I've generally run:

2 x Neumann, XY at stage lip or front of stage - 2 feet high
1 x Nak under vibes.
1 x Nak under horns.

Lookin' for ANY ideas that you can suggest.  I can also add the AKG in here.  Yes...I could patch out of the board, but I'd rather mix it myself so I'm not mixing for the house sound as well.
Mike

[creekfreak]

I agree with what time said...split omni's would be my first choice, followed by Blumlein...they both sound very good, but very different sounding IMO....with my TL's I run them split when ever I can...I love that natural sound.

[balou2]

O.K....so to do split omni's, I understand that there are often phase issues.  If I were to do two omni at either side of the stage (say 25 ft' apart, and each equidistant from the center) how should each mic be positioned?

i.e., height of stand?  angle of mic?

I'm thinking, 7 feet high, angled toward mid/front of ensemble?

[Tim]

When I ran split omni's on stage I usually ran them split 3-4 feet and at about the same height as with standard onstage taping, so just a few feet high.

as for angling I never did an a/b but omni's are somewhat directional at high frequencies so take that into consideration.

[balou2]

WORD UP!!!

Thanks for the input folks.  Looks like I'm going with split omnis next gig!

This site is great.
mike

[Tim]

let us know how it works out for you, good luck!

[Brian]

From my limited experience with onstage (7-8 shows/sessions) my best results were

small stage/space: blumlein or XY depending upon venue/crowd noise
big stage/space: split omnis.  

I wouldn't run higher than 4 feet on stage.  you'll get more symbols and less bass response.  As long as you don't spread more than about 6' you shouldn't get too many phase issues if any at all.  For spreads greater than 6-7'  a 3rd omni should be considered to help reinforce a center image and limit phasing. However with the addition of another microphone your setup has to that much more precise.

it seems to me that with "onstage" miking, a good balance can be the difference of mere inches.  I certainly wish I could get some more experience.  I need to find some jazz bands locally.  Actually I need to find the time first

[eric.B]

MS!

[creekfreak]

I agree with what time said...split omni's would be my first choice, followed by Blumlein...they both sound very good, but very different sounding IMO....with my TL's I run them split when ever I can...I love that natural sound.

[hexyjones]

I agree with the "no right way" approach when it comes to onstage mics...every band and room will have a certain geometry to it.

The biggest challenge is capturing the vocals loud enough relative to the rest of the music. I think any onstage mic combo can sound great as long as the vocals get some bite to them. Monitors tend to be a bit "beamy" (by design) - so put your mics as close to the monitors as you can...'specially if you are using omnis...I mean -really- close...like 10- 14 inches if you can...

If you are using a mixer and have 3rd mic: Aim it right at a vocal monitor...blend it in the middle. Another time, I set up a dynamic mic about 20 inches from a PA stack > added as a 3rd middle mic...that captured a nice discrete vocal sound...even though it was out of space - relatively speaking...it still sounded great.

I've run cardioids as far as 20 ft apart on big stages...
http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=22380

Omnis 6 ft apart(set 2 + SBD)
http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=22436

Cardioids 10 ft apart + SBD
http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=22735

I wouldnt use the 64k examples...the ogg is half-decent though...

Im pretty much leaning toward the cardioids at this point...I like the more discrete look at the sounds(s) they give...a little more dimension...but again, I think gettting the vocals right will make or break any onstage mix...

[balou2]

I think I have the vocals figured out (but a good point).  I've made some damn nice on-stage stuff, but the vocals suck.  Thanks to TS folks, I got hooked up with Leegeddy and ordered some fancy new XLR splitters to run out of the vocal mics.  Patching out or the SBD is a crap-shoot...I'd rather mic everything myself and get a vocal feed.

Thanks for the links!!!  Good stuff.

[balou2]

...next thought....

I was under the impression that running a "matrix" (i.e. aud + sbd) yields delays between sources?  I have a mixer, but I don't have anything on it that mentions "delay".  Comments?

[hexyjones]

...next thought....

I was under the impression that running a "matrix" (i.e. aud + sbd) yields delays between sources?  I have a mixer, but I don't have anything on it that mentions "delay".  Comments?

I think most of the comments referring to delay relate to folks adding a stereo pair that is out in the room - not onstage...the further the mics are out in the room, the longer the delay...

Agree with your approach on the vocals...in fact, in those archive examples, the only thing in the board mix is the vocals, one overhead and one kick drum mic...by the time its all sewn together with my onstage mics - it's almost a soundboard feed anyway...as that band gets into bigger rooms - I want to do just what you are doing - just grab the vocals from the mix and add them to my stage blend...

[Tim]

no delay worries while you're on stage....

[nic]

blumlein gives a very nice stereo image but you will get less bass response.
6 in one, half-dozen in the other...its all a matter of personal taste.

never ran split omnis....my favorite on-stage config(out of x/y, ortf, din, dina) was dina

[wbrisette]

no delay worries while you're on stage....

Actually this may not be 100% true all the time. Depends if there are any delays set at the board. If so, he might have to adjust accordingly.

Another thing, while not in use too often in our circles, if wireless units are used there is an inherient 3ms delay in those units. However, most of the time these are used for film/video stuff. I have however borrowed a unit recently (which came in quite handy since I was parked up in the balcony) and had to set a delay to sync up the audio.

[hexyjones]

no delay worries while you're on stage....

Actually this may not be 100% true all the time. Depends if there are any delays set at the board. If so, he might have to adjust accordingly.

I dont get that one...what kind of delays...?

[1st set only]

make sure that you try blumlein after though. that is my fav. it has a nice stereo image and during playback you can "see" the player as they were on the stage. not just left and right.

[eric.B]

make sure that you try blumlein after though. that is my fav. it has a nice stereo image and during playback you can "see" the player as they were on the stage. not just left and right.

similar to M/S which I would also recommend (if you have the means)...

[krebsy]

Curious about M/S onstage...  If you were recording a band with drums center stage, will the M mic pointed right at the kit end up totally overpowering the recording?  This would be assuming you could only get 4-5' back from the drum kit.  I'd like to try stage M/S, but I have a feeling I'd end up with lots of drums in my situation.

[MattD]

Well, that's the beauty of it ... you can dial down the mid channel for less of that fat drum sound. For M/S recording, I'd talk to Craig T. He's done plenty with either TLM170s or ADK TLs. Much of what I've heard from him done in M/S config sounds very good.

[krebsy]

you can dial down the mid channel for less of that fat drum sound

Good point!  So obvious, it didn't even occur to me!!