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Gear / Technical Help => Playback Forum => Topic started by: bkirby on February 10, 2005, 04:30:20 PM
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Hey all,
I have been doing a little research and I am looking for a somewhat decent power conditioner to try and run my whole system on. I have quite a few components, so I will need at least 10 outlets. I was thinking of the Monster HTS3600, but looking for any other suggestions around the $400 range. Any suggestions? I am also about to do some rennovating so I will have separate dedicated power for all of this equipment at some point in the next few months.
Items being plugged in:
Adcom GFA-5500 (amp)
YS Audio Symphonies (preamp)
Pinnacle Baby Boomer Plus (sub)
HHB CDR-850 (CD)
Onkyo DV-SP800 (DVD-A)
Sony KD-34XBR960 (TV)
Onkyo TX-SR502 (surr. amp)
Denon DRS-610 (tape)
BSR EQ-3000 (EQ for tape)
Playstation 2
And a hi-fi VCR (forget model #)
Oh, and the cable box...
Brad K.
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I don't know anything about which conditioners are better than others, but I *do* know I'll never give Monster Cable a friggin' dime. The short of it is that Monster Cable is using legal strongarm tactics to prevent the use of the word "monster," by any company, no matter what business they're in. For example, Monster Garage/House and Pixar (for Monsters Inc.), have to pay licensing fees to Monster Cable. Small companies just cave.
Check out the link and BOYCOTT MONSTER CABLE!
http://www.monstervintage.com/#monstercable
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Furutech etp60
and Ven Haus has them on sale right now, from $400 down to $250 :)
mine showed up about 2 weeks ago and I'm blown away. I can turn on a source with nothing playing, turn the volume ALL the way up and hear NOTHING coming from my speakers. MacDaddy just picked one up too...
I'll try and find you the link :)
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ahh crap, just saw that you need at least 10 outlets.
personally I would seperate the purely audio gear from all of the stuff
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Man, that's a load of stuff to run off one conditioner.
What are your goals?
If it's sound quality, run it straight from your new dedicated lines. Dedicated lines are IMO one of the best things you could ever do for your audio system! I prefer to run 3 dedicated lines, all with a 4-outlet box on each. Ideally you'd run analog hifi equipment on one line, my digital hifi equipment on the other (you want to separate the two if possible), and home theatre stuff/TV off the other.
I do exactly that, although I have the HT gear plugged into a regular outlet (the hifi is on separate lines) as I'm not a big HT/videophile but I do take hifi seriously.
Power conditioners seem to constrain dynamics and compress the sound, as well as adding grunge IMO. In all honesty, I have only tried one power "conditioner" I ever thought didn't detract from the sound of my rig--and that was a PS Audio Powerplant. Damn expensive, tho, and I don't think they even make one that would power your whole getup (especially the TV).
My local boutique shop is pushing Shunyata now--they like it better than PS Audio (not as active of a filter, I had a PS Audio blow up my CDP once when it went whacky!) and the other non-active devices they sold (Monster, Audio Power).
I have also heard good things about Richard Gray's Power Company devices.
Good luck... I should add that in the end I decided to run WITHOUT any filtering of any sort. The two dedicated lines made a massive improvement, and the fact I don't have HT gear plugged into the audio circuits anymore took me to the same level I got from a big honkin' PS Audio.
One extra hint that I found--disconnect your cable line or build a balun device. There's all sorts of garbage that infiltrates your power through the cable TV ground.
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here's the furutech, about halfway down the page...
http://venhaus1.com/VH_Audio_Test.html
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Man, that's a load of stuff to run off one conditioner.
What are your goals?
If it's sound quality, run it straight from your new dedicated lines. Dedicated lines are IMO one of the best things you could ever do for your audio system! I prefer to run 3 dedicated lines, all with a 4-outlet box on each. Ideally you'd run analog hifi equipment on one line, my digital hifi equipment on the other (you want to separate the two if possible), and home theatre stuff/TV off the other.
I do exactly that, although I have the HT gear plugged into a regular outlet (the hifi is on separate lines) as I'm not a big HT/videophile but I do take hifi seriously.
Power conditioners seem to constrain dynamics and compress the sound, as well as adding grunge IMO. In all honesty, I have only tried one power "conditioner" I ever thought didn't detract from the sound of my rig--and that was a PS Audio Powerplant. Damn expensive, tho, and I don't think they even make one that would power your whole getup (especially the TV).
My local boutique shop is pushing Shunyata now--they like it better than PS Audio (not as active of a filter, I had a PS Audio blow up my CDP once when it went whacky!) and the other non-active devices they sold (Monster, Audio Power).
I have also heard good things about Richard Gray's Power Company devices.
Good luck... I should add that in the end I decided to run WITHOUT any filtering of any sort. The two dedicated lines made a massive improvement, and the fact I don't have HT gear plugged into the audio circuits anymore took me to the same level I got from a big honkin' PS Audio.
One extra hint that I found--disconnect your cable line or build a balun device. There's all sorts of garbage that infiltrates your power through the cable TV ground.
Well, the main thing I really care about is the audio end being the amp, pre, DVD, CD, sub, and TV. I still want to sort of have other things protected so the Furutech may be a decent option as long as I connect everything else somewhat cheaply and it is also protected. I'm not a big HT guy either, but I would like a good picture on the HDTV for football!
I have heard good things about all of the PS Audio stuff, but their power products are bit too pricey for me right now. Any other suggestions?
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Are you looking for power conditioning or surge protection. If you're more interested in surge protection look into the brickwall line. I'll be adding one to my system in the very near future.
http://www.brickwall.com/
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Are you looking for power conditioning or surge protection. If you're more interested in surge protection look into the brickwall line. I'll be adding one to my system in the very near future.
http://www.brickwall.com/
beat me to it... seems like you're more interested in surge protecting
edit to add: Nick, let us know what you think of the brickwall.
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Why not a nice APC 3000.
Surge protection battery back up and micro processor
to regulate a perfect sine wave.
A used one can be found for around the 400$ or less mark.
Just wondering why not look at that option as well...
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Jackrose: bad idea. I tried one of those and it was TERRIBLE while on line power. That thing output the worst power ever, maybe worse than my old apartment.
On battery it was ok, but runtime is a little short ;)
I have heard good things about Brickwall. Me, I go naked. Maybe I'll regret that someday... I haven't had any problems in the last 15 years, tho, and the performance increase is worth it to me. I'm not willing to pay $3500 for the big 'un, either.
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Hmm that is odd becuase I have my stereo running through my APC 3000 rm3u and I don't
notice any issues with it whatsoever.
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Well everyone has different ears... For me it was a MAJOR failed experiment. I was very happy the two units I bought had a 30-day return policy!
I suppose it's all a relative thing. We tend to have fairly clean power where I live; so maybe that's why it was a serious step in the wrong direction for me.
You should try a PS Audio unit. Grab a used P300 with multiwave off audiogon and A/B with your APC. I lay odds you'll come off thinking the APC aint so hot!!
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Thanks fo all of the help. Right now, I seem to be leaning towards a Panamax (5410 or 5510 on EBAY). It's a bit more than I wanted to spend, but it may be worth it. I will do some more research next week and then make a decision. +T to all...
B. Kirby
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find something mov free! Brickwall and surgex are a couple.
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why not buy two furutech's, and plug 'em into the wall..? you can even get furutech wall outlets, too...
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From what I can see the Furutech is nothing more than a very clean power strip. While they do have a filter upgrade, I don't see how they could be considered a conditioner without this. They don't offer any surge protection either. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
My current system has 2 dedicated 20A lines to it. I do need to find a surge protector as we have eletrical storms and subject to brown outs. The power is very clean from what I can tell, but if/when I upgrade to seperates I will probabl look into a PS Audio 300 with multiwave, fan, and power port upgrades. If an amp is added that will just be plugged into the wall with nice power cord.
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Nice call Moke! Never seen them before, still use MOV tech, but claim the way it is implemented does not harm the components.
The one question I've heard answered both ways it this.... does a HT preamp fall in the digital or analog category. I say digital, but some say that because it ouputs analog signal via preouts it is analog. I consider 2 channel tube pres, turntables, amps etc to fall in the analog and DVD/CD, HT pre's fall into the digital. Simply put if the component is of PURE analog configuation it belongs on the analog ports. What do you all say?
sc.
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Check out the Shunyatas. I just auditioned a Hydra 6 yesterday and I must say--it might be the first power conditioner that I spring for (I never did buy a Power Plant..). It didn't seem to color the music like the Audio Power/RGPC/Monster/etc I have tried. Very close to the PS Audio Power plant in terms of dynamics and clarity without the cost and wasted electricity.
Another thing to check out is the PS Audio Ultimate Outlet, Power Director, or UPC-200. They are passive devices. I haven't heard any but the UO's get good reviews.
You guys might want to think about the upcoming broadband-over-power-lines initiative. It's going to f*ck with our audio rigs, and all current power conditioners except the PS Audio Power Plant won't filter the RF injections out... I'm going to do some more research before I jump to the Hydra or keep saving for a Power Plant.
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For cheap power conditioners, try the ppowervar and oneac units off of ebay.
Daryan
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Thanks fo all of the help. Right now, I seem to be leaning towards a Panamax (5410 or 5510 on EBAY). It's a bit more than I wanted to spend, but it may be worth it. I will do some more research next week and then make a decision. +T to all...
B. Kirby
Go Panamax Brad. Excellent units.
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so what about this one..? is this more of a conditioner..?
http://www.furutech.com/new1/produ_2.asp?ProdNo=4&noCache=76429.14
and what is the difference between it and this one...
http://www.furutech.com/new1/produ_2.asp?ProdNo=126&noCache=76429.14
you can buy the former one here:
http://www.audionut.com/pk4/store.pl?view_product=195
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so what about this one..? is this more of a conditioner..?
http://www.furutech.com/new1/produ_2.asp?ProdNo=4&noCache=76429.14
and what is the difference between it and this one...
http://www.furutech.com/new1/produ_2.asp?ProdNo=126&noCache=76429.14
Looks like the e-TP80E one is the european model
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As mentioned on another thread, the furutech stuff is a passive (not inline) EMI filter. The inside of the boxes are coated with an electromagnetic wave "absorber" of sorts--at least, that is how I understand it.
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As mentioned on another thread, the furutech stuff is a passive (not inline) EMI filter. The inside of the boxes are coated with an electromagnetic wave "absorber" of sorts--at least, that is how I understand it.
so in other words, it is not a true conditioner, either..?
thanks for the info.
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If you want something to cut noise but not be in the AC path, Blue Circle makes a conditioner that plugs into an outlet and it drains the noise off the AC lines.
http://www.bluecircle.com/index.php?menu_id=1755
I never tried one but I read lots of posts recommending them on various boards. It might be as simple as some high voltage caps to pass HF to ground. Several posts I read recommended buying a few of them and installing one into the same outlet as each noise source to prevent that noise from getting back to the breaker panel. It's a clever idea and one that would not impede the current on the circuit that feeds the playback system.
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Interesting, I have never seen that BlueCircle device. The video was intriguing, but seemed a little hokey--almost as if the sound was turned off at the same time the device was plugged in. This is not to say the device is a sham, just that it looked hokey to me :D
I have always wanted to get a hold of a Fluke meter that can measure power line noise. That would be *fascinating* to watch at different times of day. Too damn expensive to buy one just for that, tho! One of these days I'm hoping to come across a generous electrician who likes to be paid in beer ;D
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wayne has a new one that he is offerring @ boldercables....
item description (http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=17297)
$640 @ boldercables.com (http://www.boldercables.com/Store.asp?m=TheBolderCableCompany&n=10&k=134730&s=EQUI%3DTECH+Power+Systems)
related discussion (http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=16356)
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wayne has a new one that he is offerring @ boldercables....
item description (http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=17297)
$640 @ boldercables.com (http://www.boldercables.com/Store.asp?m=TheBolderCableCompany&n=10&k=134730&s=EQUI%3DTECH+Power+Systems)
related discussion (http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=16356)
Nice design !
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I just ordered bpt bp1 from Wayne, I can't wait! The equitech and bpt units are the only ones he feels are fit for digital amps that do not limit dynamics at this price FYI.
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I just ordered bpt bp1 from Wayne, I can't wait! The equitech and bpt units are the only ones he feels are fit for digital amps that do not limit dynamics at this price FYI.
that reminds me....
I ran my amp without a conditioner for a few days last week.... no noticeable loss of dynamics at all.
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Tim,
So you don't notice a loss of dynamics with or without?
Daryan
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sorry, I mispoke... I ran without the furutech for a few days last week and didn't notice any increased dynamics, when I hooked back up there was no loss in dynamics.
my amp is incredibly dynamic... I think I would have noticed.
that's what I get for posting at 8am :P
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Good news, now the question is did it make any difference (inserting the Furutech)?
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Good news, now the question is did it make any difference (inserting the Furutech)?
oh it makes a huge difference... there is NO background nosie whatsoever with it in my system
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Glad to hear it works for you!! I am going to be trying the Shunyata stuff once I finish my tube-rolling experiment.
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I'll throw my offer out once again for anyone interested:
I'll build you the condioner if you just pay for the parts (about $300). It would be my first one (prototype) but I assure everyone that it will be a top notch product. I just don't have the cash for this and my other "toys" at the moment but really wanna build one! Feel free to PM me for details.
I've had a few people PM me and thought I'd add some more pricing info.
All prices are approximate but should be pretty close (+/- $20)
8.5 amp version = $300
12.5 amp version = $350
16.5 amp version = $400
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I think thatthe complaints of reduced dynamics are only valid when the power conditioner cannot deliver the VAs that the system needs.
A high-current conditioner of solid design should be transparent.
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I don't necessarily agree with that statement; it's not just VAs, but I think is related to "circuit" design. Every power conditioner I've had in my system has had a NEGATIVE impact on the sound (except for one, as mentioned, the PS Audio P300) and reduced dynamics is one thing I have noticed repeatedly. Mind you, this isn't llike the system lost power, per se; but that the dynamic difference between loud and soft shadings is less than normal, lending a more compressed feel to the music. I don't think this is necessaily a lack of current... Those P300s don't put out much current, anyway.
I do think a good power conditioner should just do it's job without calling attention to itself in a negative way--and from what I've heard from folks, I need to try some of the newer designs. I think the old school "filter" designs could really be the issue.
I still don't understand how the Furutech works, but hell, if it helps...
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Why are we plugging amps into power conditioners? Everything I've ever read states to hook the amp directly up to the outlet. I guess if you have bad power that is another story. Most hook analog and digital equipment up to reduce the impact of one on the other. I'm looing into the Equitech, PP300, and UPC200. Either way I will end up with a PP300 at some point, but will only want digital equipment on it. The UPC will be to split the 2 types of equipment.
sc.
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Why are we plugging amps into power conditioners? Everything I've ever read states to hook the amp directly up to the outlet. I guess if you have bad power that is another story.
I live in a 20 story apartment building. I figured plugging the amp directly into the furutech would make more sense than letting it share power with 150 other apartments :)
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my experience comes mainly from tube guitar amps, but I had a Sovtek amp that was very sensitive to current levels. So much so that I am pretty sure it might have messed it up a bit... maybe this is more an argument for surge protector than a conditioner, but I intend to use a conditioner on my amp, based on the experience that I had with that sovtek. Sound quality went from really good to total crap within 2 weeks of acquiring it... and the repair clows didn't know what was wrong with it.
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My stuff has been plugged direct into the wall for a decade (except for trials of power conditioners) and I have had 0 problems, tubed or otherwise... Just another data point.
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Just another data point.
And prolly a more applicable one than mine. FWIW - I have also read that most amps have power conditioning built in...
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Why are we plugging amps into power conditioners? Everything I've ever read states to hook the amp directly up to the outlet. I guess if you have bad power that is another story.
I live in a 20 story apartment building. I figured plugging the amp directly into the furutech would make more sense than letting it share power with 150 other apartments :)
That's exactly what a conditioner does: Isoltaes whatever is plugged into it from the "outside world"....electrically. There are lots of "bad" things put back into any given power system....our concearn is mostly noise created by motors. Noise in a system will depend largely on where you live. If you're in a 200 unit apt building you can be sure there will be far more noise than if you live in the middle of nowhere and your house is the only one fed by a utilities transformer. Every time a fridge compressor turns on your tunes are suffering. :)
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r. Every time a fridge compressor turns on your tunes are suffering. :)
But your Guinness gets so happy and viscous. ;D
(http://www.newsisfree.com/blog/archives/guinness.jpg)