Topic: When to/and not to use Sub-cards? (AT853's)

[George]

Hey everyone, I got a show tonight (Megadeth) at the Theater at MSG and have a decent seat in section 205...should I roll the Subs or just the plain old Cards?  I think Omni's are out since I imagine their will be quite a bit of crowd noise.  Any help is appreciated   

[bryonsos]

205 looks to be off to the left. Is it  ? Regardless, subs seem like the right choice since you won't get much stereo image from there.

[George]

205 looks to be off to the left. Is it  ? Regardless, subs seem like the right choice since you won't get much stereo image from there.

hehe, yup.   I'll roll the subs, I'm curious to see how they'll perform in a larger venue.  When shouldn't I use them?   If I was far back?   

tia!

[hi and lo]

You wanna use sub-cardioids at MSG? 

I don't think that's a good idea at all. You will want as much reverberation rejection as possible in there..

[hi and lo]

Use them when taping on-stage, above stage, outdoors...

Honestly, there are not nearly as many good use-cases for sub-cardioids in concert recording as there are for hypers.

[George]

Thanks for the comments...I'm a newb to the sub-cards so hence my cluelessness.  I'll go with the cards...I'm not particularly fond of the hypers (haven't pulled a good recording with them in ages). 

[page]

You will want as much reverberation rejection as possible in there..

Thats the question I ask when i select a pattern to use.

Use them when taping on-stage, above stage, outdoors...

Honestly, there are not nearly as many good use-cases for sub-cardioids in concert recording as there are for hypers.

Agreed, the only time I'd use subcards indoors is if I was on stage or stage lip and needed a more open pattern to create a pleasant soundstage. Outdoors has greater potential, especially with small stages or quiet stages where you might be close to the stage.

[acidjack]

You wanna use sub-cardioids at MSG? 

I don't think that's a good idea at all. You will want as much reverberation rejection as possible in there..

QFT. Even in the theatre at MSG, that's the wrong place for that type of mic unless you are REALLY close.

The 853 cards perform nicely.  I'd never recommend the 853 hypers, but the cards should be good there.

[George]

Yup, everything went well...I was pretty close (~50' from the stage right stack).  Listening to Megadeth right now, sounds decent.  Short show though, Megadeth alone only performed for 67 minutes.   Lacuna Coil performed for ~20 minutes (was expecting a 45 minute set, Volbeat (pretty damn good) and Motorhead (yawn) performed for 45 minutes each.   

Thanks again for steering me away from the sub-cards, it was a clap-happy crowd and I imagine I would be cursing right now.

[George]

You will want as much reverberation rejection as possible in there..

Thats the question I ask when i select a pattern to use.

Use them when taping on-stage, above stage, outdoors...

Honestly, there are not nearly as many good use-cases for sub-cardioids in concert recording as there are for hypers.

Agreed, the only time I'd use subcards indoors is if I was on stage or stage lip and needed a more open pattern to create a pleasant soundstage. Outdoors has greater potential, especially with small stages or quiet stages where you might be close to the stage.

I used the sub-cards recently to tape at a handful of small venues in the village (Zinc Bar, Kenny's Castaways, Sullivan Hall) for the Winter Jazz Festival and everything sounded great, I was very impressed with the sub-cards on my first night out with them.    Since I normally  , I never have opportunities to try things like stage lip or on stage.

This is probably the ignorant taper in me:  I always think of which mikes to use based on distance from the PA, so reverberation rejection is certainly something new to me to think about.   I'm certainly pleased with the recordings I pulled tonight with the card capsules (and a baseball cap!).   

[page]

This is probably the ignorant taper in me:  I always think of which mikes to use based on distance from the PA, so reverberation rejection is certainly something new to me to think about.   I'm certainly pleased with the recordings I pulled tonight with the card capsules (and a baseball cap!).

Not necessarily bad, and indoors that's probably a fairly decent rule of thumb actually. The catch comes when you have strange rooms that are really narrow and you catch more side bounce than a room that is oriented wider than long. Outdoors though, when you are far away, short of ditching crowd noise, there isn't much that a hypercard will do for you in trade for any diminishment of natural sound that may occur due (e.g. the "wet paper-towel effect").

[George]

Hey Page, could you describe the wet paper towel effect?  tia!

[page]

Hey Page, could you describe the wet paper towel effect?  tia!

it just sort of sounds like you are covering the mics with a wet paper towel. Moke was the original one I saw use it and I knew what he was talking about. I'd have to sit and think about how to describe it in other terms though...

[kinglerxst]

I have used the 853 style sub-cards on my 933's a number of times now and am very happy with them. I ran them in direct comparison with the cards (two rigs running) and each one I prefer the sub-cards a little more, not that there's anything wrong with the card versions. These shows were in 1000-2000 seat theaters and about 15-20 rows back and pretty much dead center.

As far as location, if it's in a spot I was unsure about, like off to the side or at a venue I had never been in, I'd go with cards as they are going to be the safest choice, but the only real way to tell where the sub-cards will/won't work is to actually try them in those locations. Not something you can always do if you need to play it safe to make sure a good recording comes out using the cards, but if you can run 2 rigs or someone is rolling next to you (or elsewhere) it might be worth experimenting with.

As far as crowd noise, I think the sub-cards act more card wise than omni wise with crowd noise, they do allow a little bit more in, but not overwhelming like the omni's can get. But the sub-cards also give a little more of the omni advantage in bass response and fullness than the cards.

Overall though, I think the sub-cards deserve more attention than they get and I will definitely be trying them in more situations.

[taperwheeler]

It's funny that AT isn't producing them anymore.

I have used the 853 style sub-cards on my 933's a number of times now and am very happy with them. I ran them in direct comparison with the cards (two rigs running) and each one I prefer the sub-cards a little more, not that there's anything wrong with the card versions. These shows were in 1000-2000 seat theaters and about 15-20 rows back and pretty much dead center.

As far as location, if it's in a spot I was unsure about, like off to the side or at a venue I had never been in, I'd go with cards as they are going to be the safest choice, but the only real way to tell where the sub-cards will/won't work is to actually try them in those locations. Not something you can always do if you need to play it safe to make sure a good recording comes out using the cards, but if you can run 2 rigs or someone is rolling next to you (or elsewhere) it might be worth experimenting with.

As far as crowd noise, I think the sub-cards act more card wise than omni wise with crowd noise, they do allow a little bit more in, but not overwhelming like the omni's can get. But the sub-cards also give a little more of the omni advantage in bass response and fullness than the cards.

Overall though, I think the sub-cards deserve more attention than they get and I will definitely be trying them in more situations.