Topic: Can anyone help me with a simple step by step how to for making a flac disc?

[Tye]

I am finally switching over to flac from shn. Now I have questions.
 I am making flac discs for both Tea Leaf Green and Particle so they can be uploaded to the archive. I have never encoded anything to flac before.
I have read and researched all I can for right now. I feel I have a good understanding of how it is done but I have a
few questions.
First does it matter if I Tag the files before or after I encode?
How do I create the XML files? ( I assume the info in the tag is what becomes the XML file)
Do I need to create an MD5 file along with the Fingerprints?( I only ask because I read that flac does not need any and the Phil n Friends show from 12/18/04 has one) If so what program do I use to generate it.
I'm sorry if these are dumb newbie questions but I just want to make sure I do it right to seed it to the archive.
I was hoping maybe someone could summarize the process in a simple step by step type of instructions or perhaps a link that may already have something of the sort, rather than this page to this page with all sorts of info kind of confusion.
                   Thanks in advance for any help
                                Tye

[F.O.Bean]

well first, start w. the newest version of flac frontend, its version 1.7.1

what burninmg program do ya have

i have lately been going thru everything and making  a flaclength from shntool to verify SBE's and also in that same folder w/ the info file/flac fingerprint/flaclength text file,a nd the flacs, then i generate an md5 for the whole folder

heres a helpful link

http://wiki.etree.org/index.php?page=SeedingGuidelines

oh yeah, when encoding, verify/align SBE for sure, the other options are up to you

[Tye]

Damn I thought I posted in the Ask the Tapers section sorry about that Moke. Could you please move the thread over.
 Anyway Bean I have the 1.7.1 version
I use Roxio 6.0
SBE's could you explain a little further? So is the MD5 for that info only and not the audio portion?
So do the XML files come from the info you get from shntool or just the MD5?
Thanks for the link and help Bean once I get the point it will be smooth sailing for me , it seems like it is fairly easy once you get all your poop in a group.  +T

 

[F.O.Bean]

Damn I thought I posted in the Ask the Tapers section sorry about that Moke. Could you please move the thread over.
 Anyway Bean I have the 1.7.1 version
I use Roxio 6.0
SBE's could you explain a little further? So is the MD5 for that info only and not the audio portion?
So do the XML files come from the info you get from shntool or just the MD5?
Thanks for the link and help Bean once I get the point it will be smooth sailing for me , it seems like it is fairly easy once you get all your poop in a group. +T

 

SBE's are sector boundary issues: http://forums.etree.org/viewtopic.php?t=1884&highlight=sector+boundary+error

[Gordon]

don't worry about the xml stuff.  as for SBE's and shntool we'll get to that later.  if you use cdwave to track you should be good to go on SBE's.  so drop all the files into frontend.  just check verify and align on sector boundarys  now pick the level to encode at.  8 is the best/smallest.  in the output directory tell it the folder to go to.  click encode.

[Gordon]

oh and I do not create a md5.  to create a fingerprint.  drop the flac files into frontend and click on fingerprint.  while you are there click test to test the files.  if you do want to create a md5 all you have to do is right click> create md5 with mkwact.

[F.O.Bean]

ok, if ya have tracked weavs on your HD, heres what ya need to do

1. Open flac frontend, hit 'add files' find your folder where your wavs are, and highlight them all, from the bottom up so they stay in order.

2. if you are saving in the same directory as the wavs were in, simply keep the 'destination' to << same as input directory >>

3. when encoding, i alwayas have 'verify' checked, and lately been doing the 'align sector boundary' checked, since its been fixed in the new version, and also, i do 'delete input file' so when i go to burn in nero, there arent wavs and flacs and then i have to pick them seperately instead of highlighting them all

4. once the flacs are made, add all of the flac files in flac frontend w/ the 'add files' button again, once again, highlight all of the flacs for that particular show/folder and hit 'fingerprint' and simply save to your text file

read up on etree wiki for seeding/naming/band abbreviations a bit more tho, because you dont need to make an md5 per folder/show, i just like to do it to know exactly what i have in each folder

http://wiki.etree.org/index.php?page=SeedingGuidelines

http://wiki.etree.org/index.php?page=NamingStandards

http://wiki.etree.org/index.php?page=FLAC

http://wiki.etree.org/index.php?page=FlacFingerprint

and if you do not have tracked wavs, go to www.cdwave.com, its free

hope that helped a bit

[F.O.Bean]

also, gordon, ive never done 'test' have ya ever actually found any flacs that werent 'good

[Gordon]

also, gordon, ive never done 'test' have ya ever actually found any flacs that werent 'good

yes. more than once   nothing I've made myself.  but I've gotten some in trade or from d/l that had errors.  also I don't do the delete input files.  just incase something happens (error) in the encodeing you want the wav file just incase.

[F.O.Bean]

hmm, ive had errors from not letting the flacs decode to wav fully, but it wont delete the input file until ist 100% done decoding, so it saves the good wav, you just re-encode

i ahve never teted flacs, maybe i should start to, but i always have the 'decode thru errors' NEVER checked, so if there are errors, it SHOULD tell me

im at a standstill about including an md5 per show just so ya know whats in there, etree discourages it, archive encourgaes  it

persoanlly, ive renamed everything in my collllection to MY standards for archiving for myself,a nd an md5 is alwasy nice as a 'parts list' just to show ya what ya SHOULD have

[Ed.]

i thought you weren't supposed to check the "allign on sector boundaries" option.  if you split with cdwav everthing should be good to go and if you're flac-ing wavs that you didn't cut, wouldn't that stretch them out so that they fit on the sector boundaries making the audio messed up?

[Tye]

don't worry about the xml stuff.  as for SBE's and shntool we'll get to that later.  if you use cdwave to track you should be good to go on SBE's.  so drop all the files into frontend.  just check verify and align on sector boundarys  now pick the level to encode at.  8 is the best/smallest.  in the output directory tell it the folder to go to.  click encode.

So the XML files really aren't needed for the archive?
So all that is really needed are 2 text files 1 for the fingerprints and then 1 for date, venue, source, setlists and notes ect... right?
 My frontend already had  verify and align sector boundarys checked and the level was set at 6, should it always be at 8 for the best result?
 It sounds like I have done it right so far, the XML files and getting all that is needed for the archive is what I was hung up on.
 I don't want to send it to someone and have them tell me I forgot this or that and they can't upload it to the archive now.
 This stuff is starting to make more sense now.
 Oh yeah I do use CDwave so I guess I'm good to go on SBE's(thanks for clearing that up for me Bean I thought that's what SBE meant)
 Thanks 480v3optijb3dork and +T

[Tye]

Thanks Brian for moving the thread I guess that's what happens after a weekend of no sleep.

[Tye]

ok, if ya have tracked weavs on your HD, heres what ya need to do

1. Open flac frontend, hit 'add files' find your folder where your wavs are, and highlight them all, from the bottom up so they stay in order.

2. if you are saving in the same directory as the wavs were in, simply keep the 'destination' to << same as input directory >>

3. when encoding, i alwayas have 'verify' checked, and lately been doing the 'align sector boundary' checked, since its been fixed in the new version, and also, i do 'delete input file' so when i go to burn in nero, there arent wavs and flacs and then i have to pick them seperately instead of highlighting them all

4. once the flacs are made, add all of the flac files in flac frontend w/ the 'add files' button again, once again, highlight all of the flacs for that particular show/folder and hit 'fingerprint' and simply save to your text file

read up on etree wiki for seeding/naming/band abbreviations a bit more tho, because you dont need to make an md5 per folder/show, i just like to do it to know exactly what i have in each folder

http://wiki.etree.org/index.php?page=SeedingGuidelines

http://wiki.etree.org/index.php?page=NamingStandards

http://wiki.etree.org/index.php?page=FLAC

http://wiki.etree.org/index.php?page=FlacFingerprint

and if you do not have tracked wavs, go to www.cdwave.com, its free

hope that helped a bit

 Thanks Bean it did help. I have already read everything up and down from wiki.etree
I guess my question now is what is required on the finished disc for upload to the archive?
I read that it is encouraged to include Metadata tags and this is where I get confused this info is
what seems to be in the XML files and it seems most everything I have seen downloaded off of the archive
has had the XML files included and I have not found where it says how to create them anywhere.
 If they are not needed than that is great but like I said I just want to make sure that when I send these out to the bands they will not have any hangups uploading to the archive.
 Basicly I think I got the hang of encoding , fingerprinting, tagging, testing, verifying ect.. now it's just the specifics I'm unsure of.
 Thanks again guys it's really starting to sink in now. I knew it was easier than it looked. a round of +T's on me
and some more for my magical post #

[dnsacks]

Tye:

Few thoughts:

1) the current version of cdwave can actually save split tracks as flac files -- I've had great success with this.

2) with cdwave you should always put a track split at the very beginning and very end of each wav (and discard the parts before the first split and after the last split).  If you have the first track start at the very beginning of the pre-split wave and/or have the last track continue to the very end of the pre-split wav, both/either of these files will likely contain sector boundary errors.

3) If you do use the flac frontend to creat flacs (from waves) and use the fix sector boundary error feature (which I understand works fine on the current version of the flac frontend), be SURE that the flac frontend lists the tracks in the proper order (d1t1, d1t2, etc.) before flac compressing.  Mine always seems to put the last track first.  If left out of order, say with the last track first, if the first track on the list has a sbe, the sbe fixing program will pull data from last track to the next track on the list, etc. and weirdness could occurr.

4) I personally make md5s for the flacs I create, especially if the flacs are being torrented/seeded/etc.  My reasoning, far easier to run a md5 check to be sure everything's kosher than to compare flac fingerprints and/or test the flac set and need to look at each flac test's result to confirm that all's OK.

5) EAC can also be configured to save directly to flac.  I'm using this (and the free db file naming feature) to rip all of my commercial cds to my hard drive for instant access/spdif playback to my strda5000es once my squeezebox (www.slimdevices.com) arrives.

[greenone]

I guess my question now is what is required on the finished disc for upload to the archive?
I read that it is encouraged to include Metadata tags and this is where I get confused this info is
what seems to be in the XML files and it seems most everything I have seen downloaded off of the archive has had the XML files included and I have not found where it says how to create them anywhere.

You've got everything you need - one folder containing all the FLACs, the fingerprint, and the info file (txt). The XML files are created by archive.org after you upload - when you go to import the files, it asks you to input information that is usually pulled automatically from the info file. All you usually have to do is confirm that it's correct in a little pop-up window, and the archive does the rest.

[Tye]

and the confusion ends!!!!!!
 Thank you, that I did not know since I have never actually uploaded to the archive yet!
 Thanks for clearing that up! +T
 Looks like I will be doing flac instead of shn from now on!
             Thanks again to all of you for making sense of all of this for me!!
              I will be sure to post the links for these shows that are going on the archive
   Particle 1/21&22/05
   Tea Leaf Green 1/21&22/05
   and now that I now how to do this  a bunch of other masters I have taped
   will be added as well example, The Waybacks, LOS, Garaj Mahal, Hot Buttered Rum Strind Band,
   Galactic, Hamsa Lila.....
                                                       Tye

[F.O.Bean]

i thought you weren't supposed to check the "allign on sector boundaries" option. if you split with cdwav everthing should be good to go and if you're flac-ing wavs that you didn't cut, wouldn't that stretch them out so that they fit on the sector boundaries making the audio messed up?

ed, this is always what i thought til i did somew research on the newest version 1.7.1

check this link out

scroll to the very bottom

http://wiki.etree.org/index.php?page=FlacFrontend

[Tye]

When tagging the tracks I  just fill in all the infromation then it will be retained as I name each track right? What I don't get is I choose the custom box I know that much but do I select one of the letters that apperars if you hover your mouse over the custom box or what?
 I assume that when I start with track 1 I fill in all the info with the title of that track then when I go to track 2 to name the title of that track all the info is retained and so on. I'm just unsure of what to put in the custom box. Is it T for track every time?
 I assume this is how the archive detects the names of each track and again I'm just making sure I'm doing this correctly.
                  Tye

[Gordon]

not sure what you're asking.  just name the wav files to etree standards.  gd1989-10-24d1t01  etc
once they are saved as flacs you can't change the names. 

[Crumbo]

3) If you do use the flac frontend to creat flacs (from waves) and use the fix sector boundary error feature (which I understand works fine on the current version of the flac frontend), be SURE that the flac frontend lists the tracks in the proper order (d1t1, d1t2, etc.) before flac compressing.  Mine always seems to put the last track first.  If left out of order, say with the last track first, if the first track on the list has a sbe, the sbe fixing program will pull data from last track to the next track on the list, etc. and weirdness could occurr.

I had this problem also until the other day

if you highlight the last track (click on the last track) and hold shift down and highlight the first track (click on the first track) they should end up in order in flac frontend

[dnsacks]

Crumbo -- will check this out asap -- huge +T for that -- definitely an annoyance I'd like to get behind me . . .

[Tye]

not sure what you're asking.  just name the wav files to etree standards.  gd1989-10-24d1t01  etc
once they are saved as flacs you can't change the names. 

Yeah sorry that was kind of vauge I was in a hurry to go to lunch when I typed it.
Basically I  was jumping the gun I'm not sure this step is even needed.
 Here is what I am talking about http://wiki.etree.org/index.php?page=FlacMetadata
 Is this a step that can be skipped, it seems like this is more for dispaly on players and is not crucial to the file.

[greenone]

Yes, it can be skipped, but here's the rub - you're dealing with two kinds of metadata.

The metadata described on the wiki page is actually embedded in the FLAC file itself, and yes, is the kind of thing that's displayed on players if you're into that kind of thing.

The XML files on archive.org are a different kind of metadata that will eventually be used for the next version of their search engine, so you can eventually search that information. It's also used to create metadata for mp3's if you allow lossy derivatives to be made. Here's some more info on that: http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=12258

--Dave

[Tye]

Yes, it can be skipped, but here's the rub - you're dealing with two kinds of metadata.

The metadata described on the wiki page is actually embedded in the FLAC file itself, and yes, is the kind of thing that's displayed on players if you're into that kind of thing.

The XML files on archive.org are a different kind of metadata that will eventually be used for the next version of their search engine, so you can eventually search that information. It's also used to create metadata for mp3's if you allow lossy derivatives to be made. Here's some more info on that: http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=12258

--Dave

Very helpful! +T
  Here is another question for those that have uploaded. This should clear up any other confusion I have since I have never uploaded to the archive before. Are there fields that you have to type in the track titles when you are uploading? Just curious where they get that info.

[greenone]

There's one field where you type in the setlist, yes. Looking at one particular page:

http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=4564

Under "File downloads", those are extracted from your info file and are actually part of the XML metadata files. Those should ONLY be the names of the tracks. Further down, there's a space for the actual setlist, where you can also type in info like set 1, set 2, encore, any symbols for segues, special guests, debuts, other special song comments, etc. They ask that you don't include track numbers or track timings there, but anything else is ok.

[Tye]

There's one field where you type in the setlist, yes. Looking at one particular page:

http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=4564

Under "File downloads", those are extracted from your info file and are actually part of the XML metadata files. Those should ONLY be the names of the tracks. Further down, there's a space for the actual setlist, where you can also type in info like set 1, set 2, encore, any symbols for segues, special guests, debuts, other special song comments, etc. They ask that you don't include track numbers or track timings there, but anything else is ok.

Cool I thought that was the case.
Here is another quick question. Can you rename a flac file after it is created and fingerprinted  without creating a problem? Example you encode your wav's then realize you need to split those tracks into 2 disks. Would this create a problem with the fingerprints matching or do you have to start from  scratch and encode them again?
 Also if SBE's are present will it show an error when I test in flac frontend?

[greenone]

Don't know about flac frontend as I've never used it (Mac person myself), but you can rename the flac file as long as you also edit the fingerprint file (just open it in a text editor). But really, for the amount of time it takes, I'd just trash the fingerprint and regenerate it...

[dnsacks]

on the sbe issue, no flac wouldn't "consider" sbes to be an "error" if the data contained in the flac wasn't corrupt.  SBEs aren't a corruption of data, etc., just an issue that affects wav files burned to cd.

[Tye]

So I should run the wav's through shntool to see if SBE's are present?

[F.O.Bean]

no need to if your SBE box is checked in frontend, but it wouldnt hurt just to make sure

[Tye]

no need to if your SBE box is checked in frontend, but it wouldnt hurt just to make sure

You mean the "Align sector boundry" box right?
 I was just curious because right when frontend  is done with the last track it says something to the effect of " Info: 42 zero samples have been appended"  what is that about?

[greenone]

I'd say neither...do it by *set*. Otherwise you'll get a split-second of the first set at the beginning of the second. Usually not a big deal if you have fade in/fade out, and it's such a tiny fraction of a second it doesn't really matter, but that's how to do it right, I'd say.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Another suggestion, if I may:

Make a WAV MD5 before compression so that if someone ever for some reason switches the FLACs over to SHN, or if there are any questions with the FLAC FFP or MD5, the WAV MD5 will take care of it.

I use FLAC and SHN interchangeably, depending on what my mood is at the time.  But I've gotten in the habit of making WAV MD5s.  I don't quite trust the internal check on FLAC and I'm not a fan of the FFP.  I also don't like making FLAC MD5s, because I remember something about most ETREEers not liking that...  But whatever, it all works... 

And yeah, Mike Wren should be able to tell us, but I'm pretty sure the SBE fixer on Frontend now works just fine.  I end up using SHNTOOLs, though.

And DNSacks suggestion that you trim the first and last 0.01 sec off your recording in CDWave is key!!!  This further prevents SBEs and is just good habit - nice clean ends...

Godd luck,

Terry

[dnsacks]

is 0.01 sec, enough off the end, pertaining to a sbe?  i don't know the numbers off hand but should we trim more?

Actually, .01 second could potentially not be enough since sector boundaries occur at 1/75th of a second intervals.

Regardless, since cdwave only will cut on sector boundaries, any cut/track split you make using cdwave will be on a sector boundary.  Thus, cut as close as you want to the end, cdwave will make that cut on sector boundaries and if you instruct it to not save the stuff after the last track you want, the last track will be cut on sector boundaries. 

[dnsacks]

thanx for the explanation darrin, above was the figure i couldn't pull out of my brain. 

+T

Tim

Tim -- this required a bit of google searching on my end

[dnsacks]

busted

Seriously, I knew the time interval between sector boundaries was VERY minimal after Jay Ashley's bitching about how aligning on sector boundaries would eliminate his creative/artistic control over tracking was thoroughly debunked a while back.