Topic: Mic Configurations for Dummies (including Stereophonic Zoom link)

[KLowe]

http://www.shure.com/pdf/userguides/guides_accessories/a27m.pdf (dead link?)

Found this while trawling for gear.  I wish I had seen this when I first started out.  A very easy to use guide with angles and degrees of seperation.


Edited by Brian Skalinder:

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Microphone-University/StereoTechniques.aspx

Read through this as many times as it takes for it to sink in:  http://www.rycote.com/assets/documents/technical_files/The%20Stereophonic%20Zoom.pdf 

The "standard" configs like XY, DINA, DIN, DINA, ORTF, NOS, AB, etc. are useful starting points.  But they're just starting points.  The Stereophonic Zoom is also a starting point, but provides greater flexibility and some rationale for why certain configurations are good in certain scenarios.  Happy reading...

[Bdifr78]

DUDE!  You are the fucking man.  That ROCKS!  Wow thats a great reference.  I am gonna print it out like 5 copies and keep them in my gear bag.  T FUCKIN' PLUS! +t

Joe

[tomluvsgiants]

http://www.shure.com/pdf/userguides/guides_accessories/a27m.pdf


Found this while trawling for gear.  I wish I had seen this when I first started out.  A very easy to use guide with angles and degrees of seperation.

wow....it's like concise & everything.
whoa.

+t from Team Dummy


                       

[Nick Graham]

Very nice, +T

[audBall]

So is XY at 90* considered "Blumlein"??  I'm confused here...

Nice find though!

[Brian]

So is XY at 90* considered "Blumlein"?? I'm confused here...

Nice find though!

it's blumlein when you utilize two bi-directional AKA figure of 8 capsules.

[audBall]

So is XY at 90* considered "Blumlein"?? I'm confused here...

Nice find though!

it's blumlein when you utilize two bi-directional AKA figure of 8 capsules.

ahhh...hence the word "bi-directional"...always wondered what that meant.  Thanks for proofing the idiot. 

[Tye]

So wait XY should be done at 135* ?

[Andi]

Very nice resource.  Easy to understand....+T

[Chanher]

So wait XY should be done at 135* ?

I believe they recommend the max to be 135, and there's no way you'd want to go below 90.

[Bdifr78]

So wait XY should be done at 135* ?

I believe they recommend the max to be 135, and there's no way you'd want to go below 90.

Hey Chris, good to see you can access TS.com again.  Thanks for clarifying that XY thing. I am gonna start trying different configs myself soon!

[nedstruzz]

Any clues why I can't get that link to open?

[Unitmonster]

works for me. Great resource! Now I just need a t-bar and clamp so I can run something other than HRTF

[CaptMax]

just to clarify, for XY, the mic pointing to the audience right stack is the mic you plug into the right channel and the mic pointing to the left audience stack is the one you plug into the left channel?

[ethan]

works for me. Great resource! Now I just need a t-bar and clamp so I can run something other than HRTF

Time to upgrade your Adobe PDF reader?

[Youneverno41]

this should help me before i tape my first show...+t

[tfs8271]

What is the best configuration for:
1. indoor small (stealth/non-stealth)
2. indoor large (stealth/non-stealth)
3. outdoor small (stealth/non-stealth)
4. outdoor large (stealth/non-stealth)

All these close up versus far back.

I will be using my new ACM PMD660 with AKG CK31s>LM3>MPA III L mics...looking to place in a hat around the SBD at the Greek.

What mics should I look for to add to my PMD660 Advanced Concert Mod for non-stealth recording?

Do you adjust the angle when you are off from dead center?

Thanks any help will....help!

[Nick's Picks]

well...thats sort of a lot of questions covering the whole range here.

what config you use depends on what you like.  they all sound different..and some work more universaly than others.

for a general "will this sound good in this venue from this location" situation, a general answer is DIN.
its more forgiving than XY/ORTF.  but doesn't sound as nice as either of those configs if the acoustics are good and your in the sweet spot...or close to the stage (lip) or something.

not sure that helps much...

when you're off angle.  Its more of a situation where you adjust gain on the weak side to compensate. 
thats what I do any way.

this is all just IMO...of course

[Nick's Picks]

oh...
and regarding XY.
the big thing to keep on w/this is the alignment of the capsules. 
If you want a good xy recording...you really have to pay attention to the spacing and orientation of the capsules to each other.  I mount mine so that they are sitting on top of each other, w/no more than a 1/4" space between them.  I draw an imaginary axis line down the middle and keep the caps perfectly aligned on this.  Like stacking two quarters on top of each other and rotate them as needed...


the SHURE vertical bar sucks, imo.
its handy...but I dont like the huge spacing between the capsules.  I think if you have it tight, the result is tighter imaging and a more realistic sense of space.

[George]

well...thats sort of a lot of questions covering the whole range here.

what config you use depends on what you like.  they all sound different..and some work more universaly than others.

for a general "will this sound good in this venue from this location" situation, a general answer is DIN.
its more forgiving than XY/ORTF.  but doesn't sound as nice as either of those configs if the acoustics are good and your in the sweet spot...or close to the stage (lip) or something.

not sure that helps much...

when you're off angle.  Its more of a situation where you adjust gain on the weak side to compensate. 
thats what I do any way.

this is all just IMO...of course

great post and a question: how the hell do you make sure you have the proper degree of angles and spacing between the mics?

[tfs8271]

great post and a question: how the hell do you make sure you have the proper degree of angles and spacing between the mics?

In a private email Nick said:

I bring a protractor to get the angle just right.  90deg you can eye easily enough (though most people who do are short, more like 80deg).  and yes, 1cm matters.  its physics...and unfortunately ...its an exact science.

Thanks Nick and Enjoy

[BuddyGoodness]

just to clarify, for XY, the mic pointing to the audience right stack is the mic you plug into the right channel and the mic pointing to the left audience stack is the one you plug into the left channel?

yes

Does it make any difference?

[Nick's Picks]

of course it does.  otherwise your channels are revered.  things that were on the left will be on the right durring playback.

[tfs8271]

of course it does.  otherwise your channels are revered.  things that were on the left will be on the right durring playback.

Yeah but you would have the effect of hanging upside down facing the stage during the entire show....just close your eyes. The head rushes are a bitch though.

[BobW]

So wait XY should be done at 135* ?

I believe they recommend the max to be 135, and there's no way you'd want to go below 90.

X-Y cards @ 70^  from the section isn't so bad, a bit monophonic, but less room and boom

[BayTaynt3d]

Alright, this is probably a really dumb question, but here it goes anyway...

So the SPACING between the mics REALLY matters a lot? Why? Is it a phase cancellation thing? So, I should literally be measuring the distance so it is EXACTLY correct? Now if I decide to angle my mics a little more or less -- let's say in an DIN config -- that might be fine, but I should still get the spacing exactly correct, as in bring a ruler with me?

Thanks, Taint

[T-90]

oh...
and regarding XY.
the big thing to keep on w/this is the alignment of the capsules. 
If you want a good xy recording...you really have to pay attention to the spacing and orientation of the capsules to each other.  I mount mine so that they are sitting on top of each other, w/no more than a 1/4" space between them.  I draw an imaginary axis line down the middle and keep the caps perfectly aligned on this.  Like stacking two quarters on top of each other and rotate them as needed...


the SHURE vertical bar sucks, imo.
its handy...but I dont like the huge spacing between the capsules.  I think if you have it tight, the result is tighter imaging and a more realistic sense of space.

can the windscreens touch with xy?

[db]

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/


also this one. click on "university" tab.

[kuuan]

shure.com says that link originally posted here doesn't exist any more.
could somebody make it available?

[Brian Skalinder]

shure.com says that link originally posted here doesn't exist any more.
could somebody make it available?

It's still on the Shure site, just in a different location (select Accessories & Replacement Parts from the dropdown):

http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Downloads/UserGuidesAndTechSpecs/index.htm

It's also now in the TS Reference section:

http://www.taperssection.com/reference/pdf/Manual_ShureA27M.pdf

[kuuan]

T+, thank's, really very helpful!
this, O-Canis's template and the Schoeps overview of recording techniques make a wonderful introduction to the various Mic configurations.

[gunk]

http://www.shure.com/pdf/userguides/guides_accessories/a27m.pdf


Found this while trawling for gear.  I wish I had seen this when I first started out.  A very easy to use guide with angles and degrees of seperation.

This link does not seem to work any more.

Is there a new version of this link?

[flipp]

http://www.shure.com/pdf/userguides/guides_accessories/a27m.pdf


Found this while trawling for gear.  I wish I had seen this when I first started out.  A very easy to use guide with angles and degrees of seperation.

This link does not seem to work any more.

Is there a new version of this link?

try this one: http://www.taperssection.com/reference/pdf/Manual_ShureA27M.pdf

[kuuan]

for the Mic Configuration for Dummies at sure's site go to page 19 in their extensive 'Microphone Techniques for Studio Recording': http://www.shure.com/stellent/groups/public/@gms_gmi_web_ug/documents/web_resource/us_pro_micsmusicstudio_ea.pdf

and another comprehensive guide to 'Stereo Microphone Tewchniques':
http://www.tape.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/Bartlett_Articles/stereo_microphone_techniques.html?L+cassette+nqna2923+995498793
and 'Stereo Recording Procedures': http://www.tape.com/Bartlett_Articles/stereo_recording_procedures.html

and jecklin disc recording:
http://www.josephson.com/tn5.html

and for people who can read german or understand graphics well an icredible detailed article about microphones:
http://www.mdw.ac.at/I101/iea/tm/scripts/jecklin/tt03mikrofon.pdf

[KenH]

I've found the Oade Bros page to be excellent for mic setups for live music:

http://www.oade.com/Tapers_Section/faq-mic.html

/Ken

[Brennan]

2nd page of this PDF works good too

http://www.shure.com/stellent/groups/public/@gms_gmi_web_ug/documents/web_resource/us_pro_a27m_ug.pdf

[rockthing]

  Wow, thanks for all of those links.
This is very helpful for someone who has
just starting using a T-bar and xlr mics.

(after a long time with the mini-jack->MD setup in my sig)


I still have one question about using Near-Coincident Pairs.

   How do you deal with the cables or the back end of the mics?
   

Especially with the wide angle and small spacing of the ORTF method
accommodating the body and cables
leads to about a 3cm difference in the height of the grills.
If one mic is at 90degrees in relation to the ground
the other is at -120 degrees.

I'm guessing this doesn't matter, but it seems like it should...

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[rockthing]

  I thought Mic Configurations for Dummies would be the perfect place for me to ask questions...

I found an answer in the LD mic setup thread, even though I don't have LD mics.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,17020.msg797031.html#msg797031


So, I take it that having the mics at different heights is no problem, but
I need to get an extension for one of my mic clips
so I can keep the vertical axis angles the same.
Until then, I should try to do something as close to xy as possible, I suppose.

Wow, thanks for all of those links.
This is very helpful for someone who has
just starting using a T-bar and xlr mics.

(after a long time with the mini-jack->MD setup in my sig)


I still have one question about using Near-Coincident Pairs.

   How do you deal with the cables or the back end of the mics?
   

Especially with the wide angle and small spacing of the ORTF method
accommodating the body and cables
leads to about a 3cm difference in the height of the grills.
If one mic is at 90degrees in relation to the ground
the other is at -120 degrees.

I'm guessing this doesn't matter, but it seems like it should...

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[boojum]

This article was a hard read for me to understand.  But I get it now, use the technique and can say it is very helpful.  I have a mild dyslexia so you should be able to read it easier than I.  Check it out.

http://www.rycote.com/products/pdf/The%20Stereophonic%20Zoom.pdf

[Brian Skalinder]

I thought Mic Configurations for Dummies would be the perfect place for me to ask questions...

In general, people seem to pay more attention, and respond more frequently, to individual threads, as opposed to questions tacked on to the end of other (stickied) threads.

[rockthing]

This article was a hard read for me to understand.  But I get it now, use the technique and can say it is very helpful.  I have a mild dyslexia so you should be able to read it easier than I.  Check it out.

http://www.rycote.com/products/pdf/The%20Stereophonic%20Zoom.pdf

Thanks, got it. More information is good.

I thought Mic Configurations for Dummies would be the perfect place for me to ask questions...

In general, people seem to pay more attention, and respond more frequently, to individual threads, as opposed to questions tacked on to the end of other (stickied) threads.

Good advice. Thank you. I always try to avoid making new topics esp. when there is so much I haven't read.

I hope my comment didn't sound lke a complaint....
though it's been a while since I posted it, I don't remember my exact frame of mind.

I think my intention was to say that even though I'm a dummy and this thread suits me perfectly,
I actually found the info I was looking for in another thread.

Always hard to express myself in text.

Perhaps my link to the other thread will be helpful to others.

[Brian Skalinder]

Bump to add Stereophonic Zoom link to original post.

[Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)]

It's interesting to note that a single ambisonic mic (like a TetraMic or a SoundField) can do any of the conventional two-mic techniques that have their mics co-located (positioned at the same spot).  That includes, XY, Blumlein, M/S and others.

It can also do lots more, such as three cardioids facing forward and two hypercardioids facing backwards for 5.1, height enabled Blumlein (three figure-8 mics), and many others.

Before recording you would simply place your one mic where the sound is good.  You'd choose which mic configuration to use during post-production, back at your workstation.  Try XY @ 90 degrees.  Don't like it?  Try it @ 120.  Don't like it?  Try Blumlein.  And so on.

You can even vary the decode in mid post to highlight a soloist.  Or decode the entire recording in different ways for stereo, 5.1, 7.1 10.1 or others.  Or decode it using two different mic models, write them out to files and then mix them together later.  So you could have a soloist mix, and an ambience mix, and a room mix, and then mix them all together in post.

Add a second ambisonic mic and then you can do any of the spaced arrays (e.g., ORTF).

[BodhiTaper]

Curious to know if you can run the ORTF, XY or NOS with hypers or only cards?

[slightlys]

I made some audio clips to give some audible examples of how the different stereo configurations sound and the different stereo sound stages they create.
These were recorded off my home stereo with the stand set up 6' back from the speakers at about 4' high.
Lineage is: Peluso cemc6>(cards)> Bumblebee MiAGi-II silver clad cables>Bm2p+ mod UA-5 > Iriver H120

ortf 110* 17cm
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b0hhg3g/n/peluso-ortf-config-01.flac

NOS 90* 30 cm
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b0hhg33/n/peluso-NOS-config-02.flac

din 90* 20 cm
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b0hhg2d/n/peluso-din-config-03.flac

XY 90* coincidence
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b0hhg42/n/peluso-XY-config-04.flac

AB
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b0hhg14/n/peluso-AB-config-05.flac

Aimed straight at speakers estimate 65-70*
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b0hhg1a/n/peluso-aimed-config-06.flac