Topic: Can't decide which Omni's to get...DPA 4053's or DPA 406X...

[manitouman]

I don't like the sound of hypers so my preference are the cardiod and omni patterns. I'm researching a future purchase and the size does matter. I know there are great mics out there to choose from but these are my choices: DPA 4053 or the DPA 4060. For the sake of discussion, these are my only two choices because of what great mics they are and for  -ability.

DPA 4053's~Like my DPA 4023's, very compact and can easily be concealed for  certain applications. 9 foot cables included but I already have a set of 20' cables if necessary. Plug straight into preamp or recorder depending on application. So in  certain applications I'd have two pieces of equipment: mics>recorder.

Retail Price: $1765 each
B&H Price: $1624 each

Total: $3250 for pair.

DPA 4060~also great mics but much, much smaller than the 4053's. These are also dust and moisture resistant. The only problem is I may need something in-between the mics and SD7xx recorder such as this: MMA6000 Miniature Microphone Amplifier. And then I would need the appropriate cable with a mini-plug>XLR's. So it would give me 3 pieces of equipment in  certain applications. Mics>mma6000>recorder.

DPA 4060 Retail Price: $443 each.
DPA 4060 B&H: $420 each.

MMA6000 Retail Price: $557
B&H Price: $529.

XLR Cable: around $50

Total: $1520 for the package.

So for double the price I can get the 4053's which will only give me lesser equipment for certain applications. The 4060's would be smaller but I would be adding another piece of equipment to the chain for certain applications. I'm assuming there is a great deal of difference in the sound quality? Maybe if I can find some 4053's used? I don't know, I've got some time to think but thought I'd tap into the TS knowledge pool to see what you guys/gals think.

Thanks! 

[JD]

I run a pair of these between my 4060's and the 722....






http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=138&item=24118

The belt clips are easily removed

[illconditioned]

The 4053 are based on the metal diaphragm omni capsules.  These are the best mics you'll ever get imo.  I believe (someone fill in if I'm wrong) these are the mics that made DPA the top name in recording.  They are based on the B&K measurement mics.  As far as I'm concerned, they are the only DPA mic that I really like.  The mini mics, 406x, have great specs and great detail, but I just don't like the sound of them.

  Richard

[dennisrtyler]

The 4053 are based on the metal diaphragm omni capsules.  These are the best mics you'll ever get imo.  I believe (someone fill in if I'm wrong) these are the mics that made DPA the top name in recording.  They are based on the B&K measurement mics.  As far as I'm concerned, they are the only DPA mic that I really like.  The mini mics, 406x, have great specs and great detail, but I just don't like the sound of them.

  Richard

yet you own a pair.

[yug du nord]

I've heard some fantastic...  sparkling recordings made with the 406x.  But also some not so great recordings.  As with most......  placement is a huge factor with the 406x IMO. 

Not familiar enough with the 53's to comment.

[illconditioned]

The 4053 are based on the metal diaphragm omni capsules.  These are the best mics you'll ever get imo.  I believe (someone fill in if I'm wrong) these are the mics that made DPA the top name in recording.  They are based on the B&K measurement mics.  As far as I'm concerned, they are the only DPA mic that I really like.  The mini mics, 406x, have great specs and great detail, but I just don't like the sound of them.

  Richard

yet you own a pair.

Yes, I bought a a pair of 406x.  They are currently on loan to someone else, for ambient recording.  My go to mics right now are Countryman B3.

  Richard

[acidjack]

If you are using a large recorder like an SD7xx, then I guess the smaller size/portability of the 406x would not be quite as useful for you.  To me, the key advantage of these when I use them is having a tiny mic that can be run through a smaller power supply.  There are many ways to chop them down so they don't require the XLRs (Church can do something with them; some people mod themselves, Coresound version).  Obviously whether it is worth running them with a smaller BB depends on application. If you primarily want to self-wear and not do long cable runs, then it seems crazy to me to do anything other than chop them down and run a small 9v bb. 

I'm sure the 4053 sound better. IMHO the 406x sound pretty damn nice, and are a lot more versatile and hassle-free for self-worn applications, if chopped down.  I have 4021s as well, and while they are not a huge hassle, running 406x>BB>deck is still a lot simpler and more portable.

[manitouman]

Great information!

Do those adapters from the second post require 48v phantom power? That may be better than the preamp in-between the mics and recorder.

I have an MTII but I've been able to smuggle the SD7xx when I've needed to. So it is much easier to get in mics and an all in one recorder instead of mics>preamp or bb> recorder and then all the interconnects that you'll need, backup battery power, etc. It's a little more ballsy to get in a SD7xx recorder but once you do it's just plug in mics, power on and you're good to go. I have some pretty good methods of concealing the mics.

I've been leaning towards the 4053's but wanted some more opinions of the 4060's. The thing that's making it hard to pull the trigger is the price.

[Gutbucket]

I currently own four 4060s but I've never used the 4053.

Personally I love the 4060s and their sound.  Best bang for the buck mic around for my uses.   No mic is perfect in all situations and placement is the number one factor in recording regardless of microphone, yet with some EQ work I can often get great sounding recordings from these even when the source recording is badly tonally balanced for whatever reason.  That's a huge plus in my book and something I can't pull off nearly as successfully with a lot of other mics in the same price range or even with many more expensive mics.  I'm completely satisfied and not looking for other omnis.. I'd love to get a hold of a pair of the DPA wide cards, but will likely end up with a pair of adapted 4099 (or the rumored yet unreleased distant mic'ing equivalent) or additional 4060s (for my surround apps) mostly for size & cost reasons.

Obviously the 4053 is a technically superior mic in almost all ways, including:
Self Noise
Ultimate resolution
48v phantom powering without adapters
Slightly longer, more comprehensive warranty
Prestige

On the flip-side, 4060 is superior in a few areas:
Price
Retaining a truly omnidirectional pattern up to the very highest frequencies
Incredibly small size
Designed to be sweat and water proof
Easy wearability and DIY type rigging of all sorts
Boundary mountable
5-10v powering without adapters


A few user notes on the 4060s-
You can power the 4060's with the DPA phantom adapters, which JD posted, by a simple 9v battery box, or with a small external preamp such as the DPA MMA6000 (not so small) which provides 5-10v power.

Chris Church's CA-UGLY preamp provides 0-20db of gain, is the size of a single 9v battery holder and is sonically comparable to the MMA6000.  The CA-UGLY, which powers and amplifies two mics, is about the same size as a single XLR-microdot adapter, of which you'd need two for both mics. I use two of them to power and amplify my four 4060s, and they fit easily in a pocket with a small flash recorder. Their gain adjustment is not as easy or repeatable as the MMA6000, but the small size is unbeatable and a worthwhile trade-off for me.  The high sensitivity of the 4060 typically needs less preamp gain than most mics and in some cases I just dial the UGLY gain to 0db and use them only as a batt box to power the mics.

You can get short, custom microdot-to-connector of your choice adapter cables (1/8 TRS, mini-xlr, full xlr, whatever) made for you to adapt the custom terminations to what ever you want to plug them into at not much cost by the vendors around here who have microdot tools.  I use a short 'Y' adapter cable into once of the CA-UGLY.  The higher self noise of the 4060 has not been an issue for me even with super dynamic symphonic, quiet neo-classical, jazz and other 'down to the sound floor of the venue' type material.  The noise floor of even the quietest venue has always been significantly higher.

There are some 4060 vs 4006 comps and discussions amongst the professional location recording crowd posted over on the gearsluts board.

[manitouman]

Some pretty good sources on the LMA. Looks like most are indoor venues. I'm primarily going to use them for outdoor venues. I had some problems with the wind carrying the music when I used the cards outdoors. I've never had that problem with omnis outdoors.

Those adapters may be the ticket for using them with the SD7xx. Do you still have to apply 48v to them? and somehow the voltage is changed to the 5-10v required for the 4060's?

MPS6001 Miniature Power Supply,1-channel, 3-pin XLR----Nevermind...they are 6 inches long! and at B&H they are $290 each.

EDIT: not the same thing as in post #2. < http://www.fullcompass.com/product/289726.html >. How long is that adapter? I can't find any specs on it.

[aaronji]

Those adapters may be the ticket for using them with the SD7xx. Do you still have to apply 48v to them? and somehow the voltage is changed to the 5-10v required for the 4060's?

Exactly.  They also have one that can be used as either a P48 adapter or use an internal AAA to power the mics into an XLR without phantom.  Sort of big though (I think 6 or 7 inches long)...   

You were editing your post as I was typing mine...That MPS6001 is what I meant.  But the DAD6001 is maybe 3 inches...

[Gutbucket]

I use the 4060s outdoors for spaced omni recordings frequently and they've worked very well for that.  Since they are so small and light they are easy to fly at 3'-5' spacings from a single stand.

The XLR adapers do just that- convert the 48v phontom suplied by the SD&xx to the low dc voltage the mics need.  XLR on one end and microdot connector on the other.. appears that's already been confirmed by aaronji.

[dennisrtyler]

Some pretty good sources on the LMA. Looks like most are indoor venues. I'm primarily going to use them for outdoor venues. I had some problems with the wind carrying the music when I used the cards outdoors. I've never had that problem with omnis outdoors.

Those adapters may be the ticket for using them with the SD7xx. Do you still have to apply 48v to them? and somehow the voltage is changed to the 5-10v required for the 4060's?

MPS6001 Miniature Power Supply,1-channel, 3-pin XLR----Nevermind...they are 6 inches long! and at B&H they are $290 each.

EDIT: not the same thing as in post #2. < http://www.fullcompass.com/product/289726.html >. How long is that adapter? I can't find any specs on it.

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=138&item=24118

[aaronji]

Also, they sell a stereo kit (SMK4060) that has two mics, two phantom adapters, a pair of boundary mounts, and a couple other accessories.  If I recall correctly, you would save a bit of money going that route...

[Gutbucket]

If you decide to go with the 4060s, you should look at the SMK4060, which is the stereo mic'ing kit which includes two mics, two XLR phanotm adapters, two boundary mounts, several other mounts, windscreens, etc.

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=118&item=24083

[edit- there seems to be  an echo in here.. echo, echo, echo, echo] 

[manitouman]

Wow, lot's of good info...

One more thing...4060's or 4061's? We're talking loud amplified shows.

[dennisrtyler]

i've had em both. 4060 is just more sensitive. same mics otherwise.

[manitouman]

i've had em both. 4060 is just more sensitive. same mics otherwise.

So they are bound to pick up more unwanted noise? Such as a beer bottle being thrown in the trash, people talking on their phones, etc.

[dennisrtyler]

i've had em both. 4060 is just more sensitive. same mics otherwise.

So they are bound to pick up more unwanted noise? Such as a beer bottle being thrown in the trash, people talking on their phones, etc.

no. it just means they require less gain from your 702. they are both gonna pick up the beer bottle just fine.

[Gutbucket]

4060 has a bit lower self noise and a higher total dynamic range than the 4061.  The max SPL is a slighty lower but still way high enough.  With very loud material its hot output can overload some cheap input circuits but that won't be a problem with your Sound Devices gear.

You'll hear every detail of that beer bottle clinkage, transparently.. unless you place your body, buddy, girlfriend/wife or some other type of baffle between the clinkage and mic. Personally, my female partner is often quite baffling.

[dmonkey]

I gotta throw a little love out there for the 4060s as well. After having not used mine for quite a while (running either the Beyers or KM140s), I did a matrix recently with my 4060s taped to the sbd booth in the back of a medium sized venue. I was skeptical about how it would work, but I just didn't feel like running the KM140s (couldn't run a stand at this venue). Worked great, and I really dig the difference in sound compared to the 140s. Would I run 'em all the time? Well...no, but for a small rig for that situation I was very pleased.

I run mine thru the MMA6000, which I originally bought because I wanted the 4060s for stealthy situations (run into MMA6k and into R09). I have to pick up a pair of those XLR adapters now -- thinking about putting a pair of these up on stage with a long xlr cable run to the back of the room for running matrix at more rowdy shows (where I stress out about watching my 140s get banged around on their stand up at stage lip!). 

[boojum]

I have the 4061's which I am quite happy with.  I just recorded a Vivaldi choral piece withe the 4061's alongside a pair of 4006TL's which I can post in the next few days if there is any interest.  They are great mics and very unbotrusive if mic stands are a "line of sight" problem in a venue.

[illconditioned]

I have the 4061's which I am quite happy with.  I just recorded a Vivaldi choral piece withe the 4061's alongside a pair of 4006TL's which I can post in the next few days if there is any interest.  They are great mics and very unbotrusive if mic stands are a "line of sight" problem in a venue.

Would love to hear this!  I've never heard a side-by-side comparison before.

  Richard

[burris]

There's no comparison, sonically, between the 4053's and 4060's.  I've recorded rock and roll with the 4060's and they aren't in the same league as the 4023's you have now.  The 4006/405x really is one of the best mics made.

Think carefully about how you intend to use them.  If you're talking about low profile audience recordings, I don't think you'll do better than the 4023's you have now.  Omnis will get you more crowd and room at best.

If you really want the omni sound, I would get one 4053 and one small figure-8 like Schoeps CCM-8 or Neumann KM-120.  The figure-8 can be used with either the 4053 or the 4023 in mid-side configuration.  Use the 4053 downstage and the 4023 for audience recording.  You get a really small, quick setup with stereo width that is adjustable in post.  With a stud, shock, and quick release, you can just whip that sucker out of your bag and onto a stand in like two seconds.  Easy hand-hold or table mount...  Omni sound without the hassles of AB or using a baffle, plus a new even more low profile way to use your 4023.

[manitouman]

Thanks for all the great information and suggestions. I'd really like a pair of the 4053's. My intent is to use them mostly in open/outdoor venues such as Red Rocks and summer festivals. I've found that in the open air venues the omni's are fantastic. I'd also like trying some on stage mic'ing with them to see how that works out. I know DPA makes a widecard compact mic but that's not for me. I'd rather have a set of the cards and omni's. Still looking for a used pair...which reminds me, I need to call DPA. Probably after the holidays though.

[boojum]

I have the 4061's which I am quite happy with.  I just recorded a Vivaldi choral piece withe the 4061's alongside a pair of 4006TL's which I can post in the next few days if there is any interest.  They are great mics and very unbotrusive if mic stands are a "line of sight" problem in a venue.

What's a free website where I can post FLACs of the 4006TL/4061 tracks??

TIA   

[scb]

buy based on how often you'll use them.  If you just want some omnis to mess around with, get the 406x.  if you plan on using them all the time, go with the 405x