Topic: Multiple External Microphones?

[gossling]

I seem to be missing something.  How do you all connect multiple external microphones to a device like the Edirol R-09HR in the field? If you need an external 2-4 channel preamp to connect them to the recorder, how do you power the preamp? How do battery boxes fit into all of this? If I needed an external preamp, I'd take as cheap a multiple channel preamp as possible (http://www.zzounds.com/item--STOPR4).  Any objections?

I'm currently debating between Edirol R-09 HR, H2, Microtrack II.  I don't see what the Edirol has over the H2 that makes it so much more expensive BESIDES the quiet mic input.  I would never be using this because my applications that would require external microphones will be going through an external preamp into the line-in of whatever device.  Or, in the MTII's case, directly into the TRS inputs.  I'll mostly be recording chamber music/jazz and will need multiple microphones for the recordings I do at home.  When I'm recording a concert, I'll probably just connect one microphone to the mic input of whatever device and point and shoot.  In the H2's case, I'll just use internal mics, due to its noisy mic input.

I'm leaning towards the MTII because of its two phantom-powered TRS inputs (I'll usually be using condensers).  This would allow me to connect two mics to the recorder simultaneously without any external preamp or box or anything.  Mics are balanced, so the unbalanced issues with the TRS inputs shouldn't be a problem, right?

My final application would be accepting and recording feed from a sound board of a live concert.  Would the output of these things always be analog? Or could the output potentially be digital (in which case I will definitely go with the MTII).


Thanks!

[cybergaloot]

I'm certainly no expert but next to the mics the preamp is the most important part of the chain in my way of thinking. I don't know anything about the unit you listed. I'd do some serious searching on the web for reviews. It may be fine, I dunno. It certainly is cheap. I looked at the photo of the back of the unit and it takes AC power so using batteries is out without an inverter. Maybe check http://www.naiant.com/studiostore/preamplifiers.html for a lightweight, portable 4 channel mixer.

The R-09HR is a bit more robust than the H2, and more respected. I have an H2 and have played with an R-09. The R-09 just plain feels more solid. But I have gotten good recordings out of the H2 both using the internal mics and using a Church-Audio preamp and mics running into the line in on the H2. I've also knocked my H2 off a bar onto a concrete floor with no damage. Its tougher than it appears.

I've seen two people have problems with the Microtrack II in the field. One had trouble getting it to recognize a CF card and the other had problems with it shutting down for no apparent reason. Maybe that was just two isolated incidents. I'd say of the three units, the R-09HR is the most popular right now.

For all of the units mentioned, all will accept two mics, you'll have to mix on the fly for more than two mics.

[Javier Cinakowski]

completely of-topic, but this SM Pro Audio company makes some interesting stuff.


Look at this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=480178&Q=&is=REG&A=details

[Church-Audio]

The most important part of doing multichannel live into two tracks is MONITORING being able to hear what your mixing to your recorder because you will not have the isolation needed to get the balance correct. Because you will need to mix this on the fly... Not something that is easy to do in a live situation. You might be better off trying to run two recorders and sync them up later on then trying to mix on the fly to two track. I would find this task impossible in a loud situation if you were recording a quiet show it could be done.. The preamp your looking at has some pretty good specs -120 db noise pretty impressive. I dont know if the quality is good or if the specs are correct the distortion spec is misleading because we dont know at what signal level 0.5% is achieved. But for $79 it seems pretty cheap.

The other issue is you will need to power this preamp your looking at from an AC power source because the input voltage is AC not DC so for 100% portable applications, this will not work with out an inverter ( that will add noise ) to your recordings.

One method for syncing two recorders is to use a sharp noise like a hand clap or something that is very short decay time but you must use an external cd player with a Y cable so that the noise hits both recorders at the same time then you would leave both recorders on record and patch them in hot to the perspective preamps or mics. That way later on you can align both of them up to the clap. Then after that is done mix them down to two track. Once the tracks are locked in you can remove the noise and the patching in part and have two synced live sources..

There are also times when you want to delay one of the sources. For example you have aboard feed we can consider this to be at 0ms. Then you add room mics they were 60 feet in front of the mixing board we can add roughly 60 ms of audio delay to the mic feed and bring them back in time to where the board is so that the image is time coherent (because generally speaking the rough speed of sound is one ms per foot)

Remember there are no limits to what can be done in audio only your imagination. But everything costs money and do not be in a hurry to buy. Think about what it is you want to achieve and decide if its doable in a live situation.
ask lots of questions like your doing now.
Chris

[Church-Audio]

completely of-topic, but this SM Pro Audio company makes some interesting stuff.


Look at this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=480178&Q=&is=REG&A=details

\

This is kinda strange though....

Dynamic Range Not specified by manufacturer
Frequency Response Not specified by manufacturer
THD + N Not specified by manufacturer

I wonder why? I mean specs dont mean everything but when there are no specs at all I see that as a huge red flag.

[cybergaloot]

Since you said "I'll mostly be recording chamber music/jazz" you ~might~ be able to hear the mix using the built in monitor features but Chris is right, in the field recording anything approaching electric band levels, forget it. You'll need a good set of headphones and a headphone amplifier and even then you wont hear well. You are better off capturing each channel you need then mixing them later when you can hear.

If you an afford it, you might consider an Edirol R-44. Its getting great reviews and you can grab four channels at once.

[Ozpeter]

Unless you are indeed skilled at getting a mix from multiple mics to stereo (usually with a small mixer) correct on location, then a multichannel recorder is the way to go.  The R-44 indeed offers good value for four channels, but if you want 8 mic channels you are looking at much more expensive devices if battery power is an essential feature.  If you don't really need battery power, the cheapest entry to the 8 channel world is probably the Korg D888 which I personally like a lot, or you could use a laptop and multichannel firewire interface (or Tascam offers an inexpensive USB one).

[gossling]

For all of the units mentioned, all will accept two mics, you'll have to mix on the fly for more than two mics.

Wait, how? I thought the Edirol and H2 each have one mic input? Or are you saying to plug a mic to the line in also? I don't know about the Edirol, but the H2 cannot record from both line in and mic in simultaneously. 

I will only use 4 microphones at home or in a studio.  I will be still using my portable recorder because I do not have an audio interface for my laptop, and setting up a laptop + audio interface is a pain.  The problem is that if I needed to record with 4 microphones, the SM Pro Audio PR4V could not output to the MTII with good results (unbalanced out).  So until I get a really nice preamp with 4 channels and a balanced output, I could not use the MTII with 4 microphones.  (Again correct me if I'm wrong).

Yeah, the R-44 looks great but I am not in a position to make such a large purchase. 

[cybergaloot]

For all of the units mentioned, all will accept two mics, you'll have to mix on the fly for more than two mics.

Wait, how? I thought the Edirol and H2 each have one mic input? Or are you saying to plug a mic to the line in also? I don't know about the Edirol, but the H2 cannot record from both line in and mic in simultaneously.

 Both the external mic jack and line in jack on both units are stereo. Stereo = 2 mics.

[gossling]

Both the external mic jack and line in jack on both units are stereo. Stereo = 2 mics.

Oh! That makes sense.  So if I output a 4-channel preamp to an Edirol R-09HR or H2, would the recorder be able to process all of the channels? If not, could I buy a 4-track mixer with onboard preamp and output that to one of these recorders?

Thanks, that cleared up a lot, I think.

[cybergaloot]

What goes into the H2 or R-09 will be two channels, i.e. stereo. The H2 is only four channel using the internal mics. There is a site somewhere on the web where a guy converted his H2 to input 4 channels but I wouldn't recommend it. Not only is it a tricky mod but not likely to work very well. For the hassle you would be better off with a four channel recorder like the R-44.

So, to input multiple mics (more than two) into the R-09 or H2 you will need an external preamp/mixer. The mics will have to be externally mixed down to two channels. The H2 is cheap enough that you might consider having two if you want to run four mics, then combine the two recordings. That does bring in a new level of problems though (phase & timing issues).

Also remember that if you use condenser mics you'll need phantom power. An inexpensive battery box will work for mini mics, for full 48v phantom power you'll need a more expensive battery box. The preamp/mixer ~may~ provide phantom power. Make sure it matches your mics.

Here's an external preamp that will power both mini-mics and full 48v phantom powered mics. So far I haven't found reviews that apply to what we do since it is a new product. It can only handle two mics though. You can use it as a computer audio interface or as a stand alone preamp. http://www.floridamusicco.com/proddetail~prod~tracker_pre~partner~googlesoundcards.htm

If you look at portable mixers, look to see if it can be run on external DC power. Some of the newer ones can be tied to a computer via USB or firewire.

[Ozpeter]

The only battery mixer that springs to mind at low cost with phantom is the Behringer one (IBB1002 I think) - but then again, have a rummage on the Naiant site and check out the range of customised small mixers there.  I suspect that four preamps plus a separate mixer is not going to be cheap, and there will be some function overlap between the two.  If you want something that takes four phantom mics and mixes them to stereo, that's a mixer.  Do make sure that whatever you spend overall isn't so close to an R-44 that you might as well have gone that route - it's a very neat little package and with four separate channels you can play with the mix afterwards in a DAW and really get it right.

[gossling]

Ok, so I'll go with a mixer then.  I was just browsing through zzounds and came across that Behringer UB1002, but it only has two onboard preamps. 

Non-battery powered 4-XLR inputs + 4 preamps w/ phantom I was able to find:
- Behringer XENYX 1202 Mixer
- Yamaha MG102C Stereo Mixer
- Peavey PV6 Mixer

Of the above, which brand typically has the best reputation in audio? Do mixers output balanced or unbalanced or does it vary? Is it assumed that the standard consumer-grade mixer mixes to stereo, unless otherwise stated? Do you guys know about how large these things are? I've looked for dimensions, but haven't found any specifics.

I'll keep in mind total expenses and make sure it doesn't approach the R-44, but I doubt it'll get even close...all I would really need to buy is a relatively inexpensive recorder (160-260) and mixer (100-200), right? Functionally, what's the difference between a single R-44 and an H2/Edirol/MT2 with an external mixer/preamp combo? Outside of the portability.  How long would the R-44's batteries even last with 3-4 phantom powers turned on?

The two H2 prospect seems interesting, but the mic inputs suck...maybe double internal mics? Then you could have eight microphones at once! How much would an extra four internal H2 microphones help the overall mix, would you estimate?

Just to clarify: a single stereo mic is essentially two microphones in one? And XLR stereo mics output with dual XLR cables or mini-XLR cables?


Well it will probably be a while before I will buy the mixer, so for now the best option would the the MT2 with its phantom powered 1/4" inputs.  I could record with two separate high quality condensers which would suit most of my purposes for a while.  Or, for only a little more, I could buy the mixer now and save money by sticking with the H2 (about 70 dollars less than the MT2).  But, whenever I only need two microphones, I would have the option with the MT2 to just take the recorder and not have to lug a mixer around.  With an H2, I'd pretty much always need my mixer.  If I was stealth or portable recording, I'd be stuck with the H2's internal mics (not bad by any means), whereas with the MT2 I could bring along a small dynamic or electret microphone and stash the recorder in my pocket and probably get better results.  But with the MT2, I wouldn't be able to record directly from my unbalanced electronic keyboard directly.  And I know the MT2's battery life is not good, but I came across this, which should solve battery issues: http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2970


Agh, dilemma...Are there any options I've overlooked?

On a pretty much unrelated note, how good is the Sony ECM-MS907 compared to the internal mics of these devices (specifically of the H2 and T-mic of the MT2)? I have it and I was wondering if it would be a decent substitute for the noisy T-mic of the MT2 for small recordings.

Thanks again!

[Ozpeter]

I was just browsing through zzounds and came across that Behringer UB1002, but it only has two onboard preamps. 

Five surely??  Maybe someone can clarify.  Gotta go... more tomorrow.

[cybergaloot]

Do make sure that whatever you spend overall isn't so close to an R-44 that you might as well have gone that route - it's a very neat little package and with four separate channels you can play with the mix afterwards in a DAW and really get it right.

Cost is certainly one factor, convenience is another. Having those separate components and their associated wiring and power requirements can be a real hassle and has many possible points of failure. You might be able to save one or two hundred dollars but a year from now you might wish you had spent the extra bucks.

One factor in going the multiple component route is versatility. You could carry only what you need.

I think the R-44 is the best route. It may seem like too much money but I think its worth it in the long run. It has better preamps than the H2, you only need to worry about powering one unit, it is a well designed, relatively small package, all channels will be in sync, and if later you think you want more channels you can chain two of them together.