Topic: Zoom F3 Part 2

[Gutbucket]

To the best of my knowledge, no pad would be needed because the F3 cannot clip

You can overload the input (+4 dBu for mic-in).

and cannot be adjusted, correct?

In comparison to a traditional digital recorder, a multi-ADC design does not in itself increase the overload point of the recorder nor decrease its noise floor.  Those thresholds are determined by the the analog input stage ahead of the ADC.  What implementation of the dual ADC scheme does is increase the dynamic range of the ADC stage enough that it matches or slightly exceeds the dynamic range of the analog input stage, thereby avoiding the need to manually adjust input gain.  It doesn't increase the dynamic range capability of the ADC by a massive amount and doesn't need to, it only needs to increase it enough to slightly exceed the limits of the analog input stage.

The open question I'm still seeking an answer for is why 32bit fp was also tacked onto that, because the dynamic range capability of 24 bits also exceeds the dynamic range of the recorder's analog input stage and could have been used in exactly the same way.  I think its based in marketing.  Manufacturers get to talk about +700 dB of dynamic range, being impossible to clip, all that.  But those are the aspects of the file format itself and not the recorder feeding it.  It totally ignores the real world constrictions of the necessary signal chain ahead of writing ones and zeros into the file format.

[Gutbucket]

It's a (surprising) option. Pg 33 of manual:

"Line (+48V) Use when connecting equipment with line level input that requires
phantom power"

Conversely, I was actually surprised Zoom did not setup the original F8 to work that way as its common among all other XLR input digital recorders I use and have used.  The biggest issue I've had with the original F8 is that line-in is available only via 1/4" TRS (not XLR) and does not provide the option of phantom power.  That was corrected on F8n and subsequent F-series recorders which allow use of either input at either sensitivity along and provide switchable phantom power in both mic and line input modes.
 

what would it take to overload the analog input in a real life situation?

Exceeding +4dBu mic-in or +24dBu line-in.  As Aaron mentions, the potential for that happening will depend on  sensitive microphones, the SPL at the microphone position, and/or an overly hot external preamp output.

I've run into such situations a few times with the F8 on stage in close proximity to the drums using sensitive microphones.  If I were using the F8n or Pro model I could switch to line-in with phantom power and avoid that problem when necessary.

[MakersMarc]

FWIW I repeated battery test at 3:20 both times, MK4V, P48 on, LED on. I ran Powerex 2600s. NOT the *pro* version.

Also, that damn Anker battery does not safely connect to the F3, wiggles and disconnects easily.

[roffels]

The open question I'm still seeking an answer for is why 32bit fp was also tacked onto that, because the dynamic range capability of 24 bits also exceeds the dynamic range of the recorder's analog input stage and could have been used in exactly the same way.

I may not be understanding why you keep asking this - isn't the goal for the end user so they don't need to stress over setting levels, and the recorder's dynamic range sits comfortably with-in the file format's dynamic range? Or is that your point, that they could just do that with low levels in 24-bit?

[Gutbucket]

Yes, that's it.

[wordgroove]

so i have a question
i assum when you do 'line in"
the +! that you can raise
is just to magnify the wave form?

thanks for the answer ahead of time

Taz

[MakersMarc]

A little birdie told me that the F3 preamp chip isn’t even likely to come anywhere near 24 bits of resolution ( or even 16 bits). And listening to several recordings, I can hear that. 32 bit is great but the actual resolution is set by the preamp, and 32 bit float does not change that.

[breakonthru]

In comparison to a traditional digital recorder, a multi-ADC design does not in itself increase the overload point of the recorder nor decrease its noise floor.  Those thresholds are determined by the the analog input stage ahead of the ADC.  What implementation of the dual ADC scheme does is increase the dynamic range of the ADC stage enough that it matches or slightly exceeds the dynamic range of the analog input stage, thereby avoiding the need to manually adjust input gain.  It doesn't increase the dynamic range capability of the ADC by a massive amount and doesn't need to, it only needs to increase it enough to slightly exceed the limits of the analog input stage.

The open question I'm still seeking an answer for is why 32bit fp was also tacked onto that, because the dynamic range capability of 24 bits also exceeds the dynamic range of the recorder's analog input stage and could have been used in exactly the same way.  I think its based in marketing.  Manufacturers get to talk about +700 dB of dynamic range, being impossible to clip, all that.  But those are the aspects of the file format itself and not the recorder feeding it.  It totally ignores the real world constrictions of the necessary signal chain ahead of writing ones and zeros into the file format.

Yes its mostly marketing. neither the zoom F series or mixpre 32bit implementations increase dynamic range significantly.

In the case of the zoom, theyve just matched the ADC to an input level of +4dB. putting the 20 dB pad on the front also bumps the noise floor up by 20 dB vs mic in. In either case its in excess of 120dB of available dynamic range which is very good for all applications. But either stream could be recorded at 24-bit just as well, provided the user knew what input level setting corresponded with 0 dBFS at +4dB input.

I guess its easier for the manufacturers to 'keep up with the joneses' by taking advantage of cheap and increasingly common 32-bit ADCs, as opposed to spending a lot more money on actual analog circuit improvements that are harder to market.

[breakonthru]

A little birdie told me that the F3 preamp chip isn’t even likely to come anywhere near 24 bits of resolution ( or even 16 bits). And listening to several recordings, I can hear that. 32 bit is great but the actual resolution is set by the preamp, and 32 bit float does not change that.

Well yes thats no secret, thats right in the specs

The stated -127dbU EIN of the F series recorders fits well within the 144dB 24-bit range

Good luck finding a field recording opportunity that even lets you find 100 dB of dynamic range

I usually record in 24 bit with any zoom i use.. and keep the levels peaking below 12dB. perfect every time. you could peak as low as +24 and come out to similar results

[wordgroove]

maybe my question earlier was stated well...cuz i finally
figured out what the +1-16 option next to the line in

I saw a youtube video where a guy recorded at +16 and +1 and then showed
the signal no matter how quiet or how loud could be adjusted in post

so the questiion i have for all of you is

whats a good setting for a feed from a baby box - line in
i've been hearing put it at +2

anyone got idea?


Taz

[grawk]

maybe my question earlier was stated well...cuz i finally
figured out what the +1-16 option next to the line in

I saw a youtube video where a guy recorded at +16 and +1 and then showed
the signal no matter how quiet or how loud could be adjusted in post

so the questiion i have for all of you is

whats a good setting for a feed from a baby box - line in
i've been hearing put it at +2

anyone got idea?


Taz

Since you can fix any setting like that in post, why not try a few different ways and decide what works best for you?

[dallman]

maybe my question earlier was stated well...cuz i finally
figured out what the +1-16 option next to the line in

I saw a youtube video where a guy recorded at +16 and +1 and then showed
the signal no matter how quiet or how loud could be adjusted in post

so the questiion i have for all of you is

whats a good setting for a feed from a baby box - line in
i've been hearing put it at +2

anyone got idea?


Taz

It does not matter, so play around. You are not setting the recording level (gain), that is set by the recorder. You are just setting the post recording output volume, (fader). What you choose will not at all affect the sound quality even if the setting you choose is way too high or way too low. Your choice only affects what you do in post, and has nothing to do with the recorded sound level (gain). Your setting that would perhaps give you the least work in post (if that matters to you), would be best determined by the preamp and loudness of the show, just like any recording. The biggest difference is that if you choose a level too high or too low, it does not matter because it is not the recorded level (gain) it is the output level (fader)

[wordgroove]

maybe my question earlier was stated well...cuz i finally
figured out what the +1-16 option next to the line in

I saw a youtube video where a guy recorded at +16 and +1 and then showed
the signal no matter how quiet or how loud could be adjusted in post

so the questiion i have for all of you is

whats a good setting for a feed from a baby box - line in
i've been hearing put it at +2

anyone got idea?


Taz

It does not matter, so play around. You are not setting the recording level (gain), that is set by the recorder. You are just setting the post recording output volume, (fader). What you choose will not at all affect the sound quality even if the setting you choose is way too high or way too low. Your choice only affects what you do in post, and has nothing to do with the recorded sound level (gain). Your setting that would perhaps give you the least work in post (if that matters to you), would be best determined by the preamp and loudness of the show, just like any recording. The biggest difference is that if you choose a level too high or too low, it does not matter because it is not the recorded level (gain) it is the output level (fader)

thank you totallly makes sense
u tottally explained it thank u

Taz

[Chanher]

Something I’ve been meaning to post: don’t forget that Zoom recorders (at least the f3 and f6) make channel 1 left and channel 2 right. Well when you’re directly facing the xlr inputs on the f3, channel 1 is on the RIGHT and channel 2 is in the LEFT.

I’m accustomed to some older recorders where I’m used to plugging the left mic into the left slot (when looking directly at the inputs) and the right mic into the right slot, if that makes sense. But you need to reverse that for the f3. I think the first show I recorded I got them mixed up, not a huge deal but certainly noteworthy.

[grawk]

1 is left and 2 is right.