Topic: Sample Sonosax recordings of classical music?

[voltronic]

Thanks, Voltronic! Are Team DPA and Team Classical subforums somewhere here? Sorry for the newbie question. Looking forward to hearing your recordings and will do my best to post some of my own.

I remain really curious to hear comparisons with Sonosax AD8+ and SD 888, since (1) I don't like the headphone amp on the MixPre-6 ii and (2) I have never worked with such a high-end device and am curious what it sounds like. I know everyone's trying to convince me not to buy or worry about it, but that isn't quelling the curiosity with which I posted my original question.

Here's the recording I was talking about. Both of those Team Boards are linked on my profile.

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176324.msg2404124#msg2404124

[SMsound]

I record mostly opera recitals (singer(s) + piano is the most common) in nice halls and sometimes conductors' living rooms, etc.

I have done a lot of shootouts where I have identical matched stereo pairs of mics set up in front of a soprano and we swap out one piece of equipment like a preamp, then see if she and I can tell the difference.

I personally would stick to your MixPre-6-II.

As you know, the order of importance in terms of what makes a good recording is something like:

-having a recorder that doesn't break down/have a bug
-singer/performance
-hall accoustic
-mic placement (how many and where)

Then lower on the list is:
-mics
-mixing skills

Then even lower is:
-preamps
-converters

What does your mic locker look like? How are you setting up?

My experience with shootouts is that yes, some sopranos have golden ears and can hear when we swap one good preamp for another (and tell me that, for example, tracks 1 3 and 7 are preamp one but 2 4 5 6 are preamp 2). Same with converters.

However, these are *tiny* differences. Even the difference between two flat small diaphragm condensers like Schoeps MK21 vs Line Audio CM4 are very small to their golden ears (though they can still reliably tell them apart) and often invisible to my ears.

Your MixPre-6-II, unlike the sonosax, is 32 bit meaning you don't have to take an extra minute to set and adjust levels while you're also trying to perform. My guess is that you could swap it for the 'sax, but you will get much farther just buying more Schoeps or whatever you like, placing them better, and getting into a better hall, or doing whatever else you need to do in order to feel great on performance day.

FWIW, the sopranos I work with very slightly prefer the transformer preamps of a MixPre-D into the MixPre-6 via Aux ch. 5/6, instead of the MixPre-6's own preamps. This is based on my tests with Schoeps CMC1-MK21 or Line Audio mics (CM4, Omni1) in the usual opera spot position, about 4' in front of the singer.

[Organfreak]

Don't let people discourage you from trying to get the best result you can.  Everyone sees the point of diminishing returns in different places.  I'd suggest checking out http://jwsoundgroup.net as a place that might have someone that's tried the sonosax preamps.

Also Gearspace Remote Possibilities. But I think we're just trying to save the OP money. Nothing wrong with trying everything out, though.

Regarding the headphone amp comment - The headphone amps in the zoom f series are known to be not very good, even though the rest of the recorder is. I very rarely do any critical monitoring through headphones at recordings anyway, I just made you a quick listen to gauge overall balance and then just press record.

The headphone amp in the F6 is - to my ears - quite good - anyway better than my Creek OBH-21 headphone amp (listening using AKG K702 cans).
The F series headphone amp was revised by Zoom earlier in their F series envelopment.

[Ronmac]

I record mostly opera recitals (singer(s) + piano is the most common) in nice halls and sometimes conductors' living rooms, etc.

I have done a lot of shootouts where I have identical matched stereo pairs of mics set up in front of a soprano and we swap out one piece of equipment like a preamp, then see if she and I can tell the difference.

I personally would stick to your MixPre-6-II.

As you know, the order of importance in terms of what makes a good recording is something like:

-having a recorder that doesn't break down/have a bug
-singer/performance
-hall accoustic
-mic placement (how many and where)

Then lower on the list is:
-mics
-mixing skills

Then even lower is:
-preamps
-converters

What does your mic locker look like? How are you setting up?

My experience with shootouts is that yes, some sopranos have golden ears and can hear when we swap one good preamp for another (and tell me that, for example, tracks 1 3 and 7 are preamp one but 2 4 5 6 are preamp 2). Same with converters.

However, these are *tiny* differences. Even the difference between two flat small diaphragm condensers like Schoeps MK21 vs Line Audio CM4 are very small to their golden ears (though they can still reliably tell them apart) and often invisible to my ears.

Your MixPre-6-II, unlike the sonosax, is 32 bit meaning you don't have to take an extra minute to set and adjust levels while you're also trying to perform. My guess is that you could swap it for the 'sax, but you will get much farther just buying more Schoeps or whatever you like, placing them better, and getting into a better hall, or doing whatever else you need to do in order to feel great on performance day.

FWIW, the sopranos I work with very slightly prefer the transformer preamps of a MixPre-D into the MixPre-6 via Aux ch. 5/6, instead of the MixPre-6's own preamps. This is based on my tests with Schoeps CMC1-MK21 or Line Audio mics (CM4, Omni1) in the usual opera spot position, about 4' in front of the singer.

^^^^ THIS

I regularly augment my MixPre 6ii with a Sound Devices preamp, either the 552 or MixPre-D for their smooth, input transformer influenced character, or a USBPre 2 for a more clinical sound.

The only reason I would ever consider upgrading the MP6ii would be to achieve an even higher channel count, and the MP10 would satisfy that need, for me. 

[voltronic]

Don't let people discourage you from trying to get the best result you can.  Everyone sees the point of diminishing returns in different places.  I'd suggest checking out http://jwsoundgroup.net as a place that might have someone that's tried the sonosax preamps.

Also Gearspace Remote Possibilities. But I think we're just trying to save the OP money. Nothing wrong with trying everything out, though.

Regarding the headphone amp comment - The headphone amps in the zoom f series are known to be not very good, even though the rest of the recorder is. I very rarely do any critical monitoring through headphones at recordings anyway, I just made you a quick listen to gauge overall balance and then just press record.

The headphone amp in the F6 is - to my ears - quite good - anyway better than my Creek OBH-21 headphone amp (listening using AKG K702 cans).
The F series headphone amp was revised by Zoom earlier in their F series envelopment.

I should have been more precise in my comment. I have never had a problem with the F6 headphone amp, but I have read criticisms from others about it. But maybe those people were remembering the sound of the F4 and first-gen F8 headphone amps?

[voltronic]

The only reason I would ever consider upgrading the MP6ii would be to achieve an even higher channel count, and the MP10 would satisfy that need, for me.

Same. Someday I'll probably need 8 preamps, and it will be between the MP10 and the F8. Though I wish Zoom would delete their proprietary connector on the F8 (which has no place on a pro recorder, IMHO) and put dual NP-F battery mounts on the back. That's one of the biggest reasons I haven't gone for an F8 yet.

[goodcooker]

The only reason I would ever consider upgrading the MP6ii would be to achieve an even higher channel count, and the MP10 would satisfy that need, for me.

Same. Someday I'll probably need 8 preamps, and it will be between the MP10 and the F8. Though I wish Zoom would delete their proprietary connector on the F8 (which has no place on a pro recorder, IMHO) and put dual NP-F battery mounts on the back. That's one of the biggest reasons I haven't gone for an F8 yet.

Isn't the F8 a hirose connector? That's not proprietary - that's industry standard. Converters for Dtap, NPF and all sorts of other battery solutions exist. I'm sure they went with that due to it's use by Sound Devices and lots of other pro brands.

[grawk]

The only reason I would ever consider upgrading the MP6ii would be to achieve an even higher channel count, and the MP10 would satisfy that need, for me.

Same. Someday I'll probably need 8 preamps, and it will be between the MP10 and the F8. Though I wish Zoom would delete their proprietary connector on the F8 (which has no place on a pro recorder, IMHO) and put dual NP-F battery mounts on the back. That's one of the biggest reasons I haven't gone for an F8 yet.

Isn't the F8 a hirose connector? That's not proprietary - that's industry standard. Converters for Dtap, NPF and all sorts of other battery solutions exist. I'm sure they went with that due to it's use by Sound Devices and lots of other pro brands.

It's got a connector to use the lousy mics from the H series recorders.

[goodcooker]

The only reason I would ever consider upgrading the MP6ii would be to achieve an even higher channel count, and the MP10 would satisfy that need, for me.

Same. Someday I'll probably need 8 preamps, and it will be between the MP10 and the F8. Though I wish Zoom would delete their proprietary connector on the F8 (which has no place on a pro recorder, IMHO) and put dual NP-F battery mounts on the back. That's one of the biggest reasons I haven't gone for an F8 yet.

Isn't the F8 a hirose connector? That's not proprietary - that's industry standard. Converters for Dtap, NPF and all sorts of other battery solutions exist. I'm sure they went with that due to it's use by Sound Devices and lots of other pro brands.

It's got a connector to use the lousy mics from the H series recorders.

I thought we were talking about the battery connector. But I realize now he meant losing that goofy connector for those mics and adding a NPF slot. Got it.

[voltronic]

The only reason I would ever consider upgrading the MP6ii would be to achieve an even higher channel count, and the MP10 would satisfy that need, for me.

Same. Someday I'll probably need 8 preamps, and it will be between the MP10 and the F8. Though I wish Zoom would delete their proprietary connector on the F8 (which has no place on a pro recorder, IMHO) and put dual NP-F battery mounts on the back. That's one of the biggest reasons I haven't gone for an F8 yet.

Isn't the F8 a hirose connector? That's not proprietary - that's industry standard. Converters for Dtap, NPF and all sorts of other battery solutions exist. I'm sure they went with that due to it's use by Sound Devices and lots of other pro brands.

It's got a connector to use the lousy mics from the H series recorders.

I thought we were talking about the battery connector. But I realize now he meant losing that goofy connector for those mics and adding a NPF slot. Got it.

Correct, and I think the BNC timecode connectors could be relocated to accommodate the battery mounts.

[Gutbucket]

Regarding your usage case-

For this, my "mobile session" setup, I am recording live performances and sessions in churches or small theaters, usually including myself as a performer, usually into a DAW so that we can easily listen to takes. I'd use 4-6 channels now but want to be able to grow. Ideally the setup would also work on batteries with self recording (like MixPre), but for the session use case, I mainly just want great quality and don't want to have to lug a 1U box just to get extra channels.

For context, I also own RME Babyface Pro and 12Mic, but since 4 channels is a common use case and I'm very frequently on international tours taking a zillion flights, I want something that fits into a carryon bag (besides mic stands...grr mic stands...).

Larry

(..and grr cabling..)

Given your described usage, the collective elimination of an extra preamp unit, the powering requirements for it, and elimination of the additional interconnect cabling is likely to be particularly attractive practical considerations to be balanced against perceivable sonic differences.

 ..and I say that as one of the folks here that heard a significant difference in the comparison jbell linked to in the 3rd post of the thread, with a personal preference for the Sonosax over the Mixpre6. >

Here was an old comp of the Sonosax and Mixpre6!  Most people preferred the Mixpre6. 

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=184892.0

Based on my own subjective balancing of practicality against perfection, your most preferred microphones direct into Zoom F8n Pro or SoundDevices Mixpre 10-II are the two options I'd most strongly consider.  Both provide 8 standard-size XLR inputs with good quality preamps and will make for an excellent sounding recording rig that is compact and relatively simple to setup, power and run.  But of course you will need to make the final determination for yourself, and perhaps reassess that after using it for a while.

[Gutbucket]

Regarding the Zoom F series headphone amp-

Upon initial release, the Zoom F8 headphone amp lacked sufficient gain to properly drive high impedance headphones.  This was later corrected via a firmware update that provided a menu option which allows the user to digitally increase the base-line gain by an adjustable amount of up to +24dB (also added was control over the shape of the gain curve affected by the headphone volume knob- linear, inverse-exponential, or S-shaped).  I keep it set to +20dB for driving Sennheiser HD650, HD600 and other relatively high impedance headphones to appropriate loudness levels for critical listening directly off the recorder after a recording session, and am fully satisfied with it after making that adjustment. The same setting is appropriate for the lower impedance sealed-back headphones I'd use for active monitoring in a recording situation, although I rarely do that.

[goodcooker]

A group called Classical Location Recording just came across my Facebook feed. If you are on FB maybe stop in and ask them. Since many of these groups are global you may have some better luck in your search for samples of Sonosax gear.

[tim_k]

Magnus Bergsson of fieldrecording.net is a Sonosax and Mixpre user who records classical music as well as field recordings. You could reach out to him and see if he has any comparisons, I know he does a lot of mic comparisons at least.

[gaijin]

Sonosax - the "24k gold plated HDMI cable" of field recorders... Just can't bring myself to drink the Kool aid, even when someone as wise and experienced as Gutbucket has told us repeatedly that we should.