Topic: Old taper going digital

[bodegahwy]

Well, don't make fun of me... I am from the era of Nak 550 (even the Teac PC-10 before that) and later the TCD-5Pro.  Used to run a pair of 451e x/y, CK1, CK2, CK8 with outboard phantom power and burn D cells like crazy... (The Teac took 6!)

Anyway, 20-30 years later, two kids, mortgage... but I want to get back into it and record some local music, no stealth, just friends, myself, shows at local clubs or festivals.

What do you guys think of the PMD-670 with mics like the KM184, SM-81, 451b, AT4051  etc straight into it... i.e., no mixer, no outboard power etc.

If I want to go portable and stay under 2K is this a good way to go?

[pfife]

under 2K, you'd be able to get something really decent, esp. if you buy used...

you say going straight in - I think you'd have enough money there to get a preamp...

in the yard sale section someone is possibly selling a W-Mod UA-5 - that's a nice sounding pre for the $$$... it'll be less than 500, so you'll still have 1500 for mics/recorder.  They are new from OAde for $500.

Edit:  And +t - welcome to ts.com!

[bodegahwy]

Please excuse the lack of familiarity with today's gear and jargon... what is a w-mod UA-5?  I presume it is a pre-amp/mixer... but who makes it?  Where do I find info on it?

Thanks

[T.J.]

under 2K, you'd be able to get something really decent, esp. if you buy used...

you say going straight in - I think you'd have enough money there to get a preamp...

in the yard sale section someone is possibly selling a W-Mod UA-5 - that's a nice sounding pre for the $$$... it'll be less than 500, so you'll still have 1500 for mics/recorder.  They are new from OAde for $500.

Edit:  And +t - welcome to ts.com!

not too sure about those mics, but I must recomend an edirol ua-5. the digi-mod by oade is a definite if you are not going to be recording to computer.  you can always start with that, see if you like it, and then send it back for either a wmod, pmod, or tmod. for more info go here:
http://www.oade.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv
+t for gettin' back in the game

[T.J.]

an edirol ua-5 is a preamp. it was initially intended to be used with a computer. but oade has a modification they do called a "digi" mod which allows this preamp to be used with, for example a DAT recorder or a nomad jukebox 3 (which are very popular for recording, unfortunately discontinued by Creative)

[bagtagsell]

in the archival section there is more info.  Its a preamp and audion digital converter all in one box.  Its made by edirol.  In order for it to work in our situation it needs some basic modifications.  The modded unit sends out a spdif signal (looks like an rca jack), and an optical signal, which will hook up to a nomad jukebox three (another piece of gear I would recommend.  Adding a warm, or presences, or transparency is a differant mod, it doesnt have to be dones, but it helps.  Doug Oade takes out the op amps and stuff.  You can't beat the ua-5, and it will do a better job at adc then most recording devices.  They come up for sale here and there.  I paid $425 for a used Warm modded UA-5.

A nomad jukebox 3 or jb3 or njb3.  Is a digital recorder.  No more tapes.  Records in wav, no lossey.  And runs rechargeable lithium ion on batteries.  Great device.  TRansfers to computer via firewire or usb. 

[bodegahwy]

Thank you again for ideas... things have gotten complicated in the last 20 years.  I found the Oade site and tried to follow the info.. it looks like I need the digi mod if I am not using a computer. 

I guess I do not really understand why I should not just plug mics into a PMD-670 to start with?  Can't I start with that and add a preamp/mixer later?

By the way the Edirol R4 looks pretty cool.  Anybody know what they go for?

[creekfreak]

hmmm.......ADK TL's for mics (around $600-$700 used), but they are LD mics and might be too big for what you want (but they also have 4 patterns and sound spectacular), through in a moded UA-5 for around $350 and you have your mics and pre/amp/AD taken care of for around $1000. Leaves another $1000 for everything else you need, JB3 would be a good recorder in the price range.

[Chuck]

Thank you again for ideas... things have gotten complicated in the last 20 years.  I found the Oade site and tried to follow the info.. it looks like I need the digi mod if I am not using a computer. 

I guess I do not really understand why I should not just plug mics into a PMD-670 to start with?  Can't I start with that and add a preamp/mixer later?

By the way the Edirol R4 looks pretty cool.  Anybody know what they go for?

I was in your shoes about a year and a half ago too. I was a casssette taper geezer wanting to get back into recording shows.
I've finally put together a half way desent rig. My advice is, start reading on this site and the Oade site. After reading up on your options, try to get your hands on some recordings using the gear you have read about. I do have to agree that a moded UA-5 is a very good piece of gear that will get you started for a reasonable price. +T and good luck.

[bodegahwy]

So....  SDC mics, digimod UA5, PMD-670 w/ a 2 gig CF card...   mics ~$500 used, UA5 ~$400 used, 670 ~$ 600 used...  all in about $1500 before memory, cables and misc?

BTW... thanks again.

I still do not think that I understand why I need the UA5 when the 670 has phantom power.

[Tim]

Thank you again for ideas... things have gotten complicated in the last 20 years.  I found the Oade site and tried to follow the info.. it looks like I need the digi mod if I am not using a computer. 

I guess I do not really understand why I should not just plug mics into a PMD-670 to start with?  Can't I start with that and add a preamp/mixer later?

No reason you can't do that. I don't know enough about the internal mic pres in the pmd670 though, they may distort rather easily at concert levels. That's why so many people are pushing the ua5 and not paying attention to your actual question I guess. None of the digital decks that we use have pres on par with the D5's of old. The Oades do modifications to the Fostex FR-2 to make it's mic pres  more suitable for our purposes if you are dead set on running mics->deck... not sure on exact pricing but you could buy some used mics and a mod'd FR-2 for a little over 2k I think.

Out of the mics you mentioned the km184's are my favorite, the AT's are also nice. What kind of sound are you looking for? I really like the Microtech Gefell m300's in that price range and the AKG 480's too... all used of course.

[JasonSobel]

you seem to be going after a Marantz PMD-670.  let me tell you me thoughts about it.  it's real limitation is that it doesn't record at 24 bit.  I have also heard that the internal front-end is not the best quality, so if you run mic in, it'll be a fairly noisey recording.  However, if you pick up a ua5 (or any other A/D converter, for that matter), you'll be sending a digital signal into the deck, and the internal analog front-end gets bypassed anyway.) 

a lot of people here are going to tell you a get a Nomad Jukebox 3 (aka JB3).  this is an .mp3 player, about the size of a discman.  but it has an digital input, and records in .wav file  (also limited to 16 bit).  So if you've got an external A/D converter (like the UA-5), then a recording on the PMD-670 will be EXACTLY the same as a recording on the JB3.  the only thing that the recorder is doing is writing the data for the .wav file. 

now, let's compare the two units...  a PMD-670 is designed for our purposes, so I'm sure it is a more rugged piece of equipment.  and FLASH media is more reliable than harddrives, because it has no moving parts.  However, at this point in time, a 2-gig CF card is about as big as you can get.  3 hours at 16/48 (or 16/44.1).  get yourself a couple of cards, and you'll be all set.

the JB3, while not as rugged, records to .wav file on an internal hard drive.  your options are 20-gigs or 40-gigs.  20-gigs should be plenty, and provides for hours and hours of recording (although I believe there is a three hour files size limit anyway, but at least you don't have to worry about switching media, just starting a new file).

both allow very easy transfer to a computer, for tracking, editing, and burning to CD.  the big thing that the JB3 has going for it is price.  you can pick up one from eBay for about $150...

so there you have it.  maybe soon, marantz will release the PMD-671 (if the thing even exists?) that can record at 24/96.  that's a whole different story.  but in the meantime, if you're just looking to record at 16-bit, than either of these would be good.  if you get the cheaper JB3, perhaps you could put the extra $$$ into better mics, or maybe get more than the digi-mod UA-5 with one of Doug's mods to the ua-5 front-end.   or maybe look into a used Apogee MiniMe or Lunatec V3...  just throwing out some ideas...

[bodegahwy]

I guess the majority of my recording will be accoustic instruments with some festivals etc thrown into the mix.  No more big rock shows for me.  The nearest venue is 200 miles away and the bands I liked and recorded don't play any more.

Thanks for the explanations on the gear and connecting it to the old D5, which took mic level inputs just fine.  That is where the confusion was.  (Maybe I should just buy the one that is on ebay right now for $150! and stay in my comfort zone)

Thanks also for the explanations on the front end of the 670.  One feature I really like about it when I was reading up on the unit was the computer connection..  you can see it on explorer as a drive and copy files etc at high transfer speeds.  I also have seen the write-up on the 671.  It does sound pretty good as does the R4.  The PMD 660 also looks intersting.

Am I right in my reading of the R4 that I would not need the outboard preamp like the UA5 with a unit like that?  If so I think I'll wait for it.

Flah media now comes at 4 gigs (~$200) which does not put me off too much.  A couple of them would cover anything I am ever planning to record.

[Tim]

I guess the majority of my recording will be accoustic instruments with some festivals etc thrown into the mix.  No more big rock shows for me.  The nearest venue is 200 miles away and the bands I liked and recorded don't play any more.

Thanks for the explanations on the gear and connecting it to the old D5, which took mic level inputs just fine.  That is where the confusion was.  (Maybe I should just buy the one that is on ebay right now for $150! and stay in my comfort zone)

Thanks also for the explanations on the front end of the 670.  One feature I really like about it when I was reading up on the unit was the computer connection..  you can see it on explorer as a drive and copy files etc at high transfer speeds.  I also have seen the write-up on the 671.  It does sound pretty good as does the R4.  The PMD 660 also looks intersting.

Am I right in my reading of the R4 that I would not need the outboard preamp like the UA5 with a unit like that?  If so I think I'll wait for it.

Flah media now comes at 4 gigs (~$200) which does not put me off too much.  A couple of them would cover anything I am ever planning to record.

You should look very hard at a Nomad JB3 over the Marantz deck.

Easy firewire or usb connection to the computer, run optical right out of a ua5 into it without any format converters,  small, lightweight, plenty of hd space. It doesn't do 24bit but it looks like that's not really a concern.

IMO mics->mod ua5->jb3 is tough to beat in the sub $2k category....

[bhtoque]

Am I right in my reading of the R4 that I would not need the outboard preamp like the UA5 with a unit like that?  If so I think I'll wait for it.

The R4 is going to be in the 8k range, and is _way_ more than you'd want for occasional recording.

You could go Studio Projects C4 or Superlux (can't think of model #, but several people here run them)>UA-5> Sony Dat(or JB3) and get it all with money to cover all the other odds and ends you'll need.

Unless you're going to tape several shows a month, you'd not get your money's worth out of a 2k rig.

You could go mics>phantom power>line transformers (in place of pre)>dat for only 1k.

JAson

[bodegahwy]

Money's worth?  Now there is a subjective issue.  If I have fun doing it, I'll be covered on that front.  At least it's cheaper than guitars!  (LOL,  I know the sky is the limit...  If I get recordings that sound as good as my D5 with 451e mics I'll be a happy camper)

I am still tempted to get a unit that has Phantom Power like the 670 and run with that for while and add the UA5 later if I get more serious.  At least I could make the CD of myself that my mother has been asking for these many years.  She is about 70 now, so I better not put it off too much longer...

Seriously though,  Thanks again everybody for all the help and advice.

[dnsacks]

1) if you're really set on the pdm-670, note that doug oade (@ www.oade.com) sells these and performs some modifications to the front end to fix their inherent sonic shortcomings (alluded to by Tim, etc.) --

2) I'd also look strongly at the Fostex FR2 (also sold and modified to improve the analog front end by doug oade) -- costs a bit more than the pdm-670, but also supports solid state media (which can actually be read directly by computers using cheap card readers).  The main advantages being that it's supposed to be a better sounding unit than the marantz and, unlike the marantz, it supports 24 bit recording (which can pretty easily be burned to dvd and played back in dvd-a players) as well as standard 16bit/44.1k (i.e. audio cd standard).

3) not sure you're 100% clear on everybody's attraction to the mod ua5/jb3 combo (as I still feel it gives the most bang for your buck).  Start with the jb3 -- The JB3 is a portable-cd-player sized hard-drive-based mp3/wav recorder/player.  In this situation, it simply serves as a digital recorder, reading and storing to its 20gb internal hard drive the zeros and one sent to it by the ua5 (in 16/44.1k cd-ready format).  The jb3 then connects to a pc (via usb or firewire -- firewire's a lot faster) and, after a few mouse clicks, your recording's transferred to your computer for tracking and burning (just about as easy as transferring from the pdm-670 or fr2).  The UA-5 serves as a one box setup providing phantom power, a nice sounding mic pre (especially with one of the oades' analog line stage mods), and an a>d converter.  The weak links with this setup are a) metering sucks -- but it's easy to add an external meter for around $100, and b) the initial learning curve's a bit steeper than the 2 above.  However, there are a TON of folks running this exact combo in the field and you therefore have a huge "fan base" that can get you up and running (as well as fairly detailed instructions on this site -- I think)

Mics -- I'm going to throw out another suggestion in your price range -- the studio projects LSD2, a one piece stereo large diagphram microphone containing 2 LD capsules stacked on top of oneanother -- the caps are modeled after the classic german LD capsules (i.e. neumann u87 or akg 414) -- I run one and think it sounds amazing (especially for the price) -- to me it sounds more like a LD AKG than a LD neumann -- besides sounding great, it's also really easy to set up, dial in the angle between the caps, select pickup patterns (omni, cardiod or figure , mount its included shockmount onto your stand and you're ready to go.  Though it seems pretty large at first (at just over a foot tall), since it's not pointing out at the sound source (like a pair of sd mics), it actually is a pretty low profile setup. 

the following link will send you to a boatload of samples doug oade made of the above mic, the studio projects c4 (small diagphram condensors) and a schoeps mtsc64 (schoeps mk4 card caps in ortf configuration) through a variety of mods made to the above gear (fr2 and ua5).  This should give you some idea of the different sound these combos could provide. -- http://www.oade.com/Tapers_Section/Forum/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=1553&mode=full#1576

[bagtagsell]

If you like the windows explorer type transfer system, Red Chair software makes a program for the JB3 that will give you windows explorer on your jb3

[Brian Skalinder]

The weak links with this setup [ UA5 / JB3 ] are a) metering sucks -- but it's easy to add an external meter for around $100

Just a quick note to say that while this setup would benefit from external meters, I had no trouble running it without meters.  Just takesa  little practice - took me all of a couple shows to get the feel for it.

[caymanreview]

The weak links with this setup [ UA5 / JB3 ] are a) metering sucks -- but it's easy to add an external meter for around $100

Just a quick note to say that while this setup would benefit from external meters, I had no trouble running it without meters.  Just takesa  little practice - took me all of a couple shows to get the feel for it.

same here, i ran that rig for quite some tiem w/out meters

[sexymexi]

i might try to stay away from the 2 gig flash cards for media.  I know in the FR-2 they burn up.  If you don't plan on running 24/96 i think it might be ok.  i would just be cautious using them for that.  Anyone have any other problems with CF cards??