Topic: super newb, first recording setup

[atxwolfattack]

hey everyone, i know that there are probably so many people that make posts and dont know what the hell they are talking about, and I am probably one of them. I am 18 years old, live in Austin, TX, and for the past year or so, i keep having this urge to buy a little stealth setup and go record all the shows i go to. I will spend days doing research, get all excited, then realize "wow, i really don't know what i am doing, maybe i should just leave it to someone else to record the shows and then i search for it online"... But i have finally decided that i am going to invest in a little setup to record shows.

I am a college student with not a ton of money, so i can't just go all out. From what i have been reading, and what seems to be in my price range, i have narrowed it down to 3 devices.. The M-Audio MicroTrack, Edirol R-09, and the Zoom H4. I really don't know what the big differences between them. They all seem to be good picks from what I have read.

I have no earthly idea about mic's.

I mostly go to a bit louder shows, lets just say "Sonic Youth" type music, just to put it into perspective. Maybe not always that loud, but that would be the extreme, but i also will be recording some softer stuff, maybe even totally acoustic performances.
I would really appreciate it if someone could maybe help me out with picking out a good, fairly inexpensive stealth setup for recording shows? South By Southwest is in a few months, and I have a few friends that are coming into town to play shows, and my goal is to use these 3 months practicing recordings shows so i will be able to successfully record their shows.

Thanks a bunch!

Josh

[sygdwm]

these guys can help probably you out w/ advice and spending your money:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,72563.0.html

ps- welcome to ts.com. check your wallet at the door.

[balou2]

First off, welcome to the board!  Whether you know it or not, you're about to embark on a journey in to one of the most addictive practices you'll ever partake in...recording live music.

Secondly, read EVERY thread you see.  Search the archives on here, and you'll learn more than you ever need to know.  Also...remember the 'search' function.  It can help.

As for your rig, it's completely subjective.  For the uses you describe, your choice of recorder is fine.  I know little about the Zoom, but both the Microtrack and R9 are both fantastic little devices.  They each have their pros and cons.  If you're JUST going mics > recorder, my PERSONAL opinion would be to use the MT as it has built in phantom power.

For mics, there are numerous choices, but we need to know approximately how much you can spend.  Nodbody can pick the mics for you, but we can at least let you know what's in your price range.

...and oh yeh...turn off your computer, and walk away slowly.

[dorrcoq]

Good luck!  At least you're in a great city for music.   I just started taping this year, and have been very happy with the Edirol R-09.  Very easy to learn and if you are limited and can't afford external mics yet, the built-in mics do an adequate job.

[sml42]

One option to keep your costs down is to buy used equipment. If you haven't already, check out the 'yard sale' forum on here.

As to choosing mics... I'd advise to let your ears decide. Narrow your choice down by budget, and listen to other live recordings made with similar gear.

the 'where to begin' forum is a good starting point:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/board,46.0.html

welcome aboard!
stephen

[guysonic]

In my experience, the mics and how they are being used is at least 90% of the important recording quality, so budget for these first. 

The preamplifier is second in importance and most low cost flash decks are lacking quiet internal preamplifier that while adequate for louder pop/rock venue recording, fall short of adequate for acoustic music with most smaller sized microphones suitable for low profile recording.

The choice in deck model is mostly logistics for having cost to fit budget, small size suitable for low profile operation, and easy powering for lasting 3-4 hours before needing battery change, or recharging.  Deck bonus features like internal microphones, phantom powering ability, 24bit/96K recording ability, and easily changed out batteries for longer recording times are less important deck features in most cases.

If I were choosing a recording system to fit your range of interest (as if you were a prospective customer looking for a recording solution), the following seems a solid configuration fitting your requirement and maybe also within budget.


Sonic Studios:
DSM-6S/M  headworn mic with miniXLR output plug

Specifications and options:www.sonicstudios.com/dsm.htm#chart

PA-3SX mic preamplifier with miniXLR input jack

Powers DSM mic, and provides 3 gains at low noise/low distortion
www.sonicstudios.com/access.htm#3sx

Edirol/Roland
R-09 SDHC flash deck

review at:www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm

Transcend
8 GIG SDHC flash memory card
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820208088

Recordings done with type of chosen mic are often helpful in making choices.
Two pages of 100's of samples using at least this type of mic, and some with exact same suggested preamp/deck at:

www.sonicstudios.com/mp3.htm 
and
www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm
 

If budget doesn't cover the cost, then suggest cost cutting 1st on deck (maybe by a used MD, DAT, or?), then if still short, consider dropping the preamplifier for later, leaving your mic and mic-powering choice as most important component to adequately keep within affordable budget. 

Affording at least your best choice of mic model will help getting started with good sounding results at least for the more amplified pop/rock music interests.  Adding the preamplifier aids in getting better results with less amplified acoustic music where having adequate high gain, low noise/distortion preamplifier performance is most audible.

[china_rider]

Just my .02.  I've had the exact sonic studio gear that guy lists above and it has worked near perfectly for me in almost all situations.  I added the R9 for 24 bit recording after using the sonic studios gear with a JB3 first then a iRiver 120.  If you don't care about 24bit the iRiver is a great inexpensive recorder when loaded with Rockbox.  They are not made anymore but can be found on eBay.

The only thing that I may throw out there as a word of caution is that I was at a festival once that had all types of music and one stage was the 'louder' type bands.  Not sonic youth though.  Not my type of music but a friends little sister wanted me to try to get it.  So I recorded Live and then Lit.  The DSM-6SMs were fine for Live but heavily distorted for Lit (which was much louder, so loud my earplugs were almost rendered useless.)  I was about 1/2 way back and not near the stacks.

By the way welcome to the board and one of the most addictive hobbies you will come across.

EDIT:
Frys now has the 8gig transcend card for $100 with free shipping.  About $15 less then newegg.
http://shop2.outpost.com/product/5090405

[atxwolfattack]

so Guysonic, the preamps in the Zoom h4, Microtrack, and R-09 are probably not good enough for quiet acoustic shows?

I was looking to spend between 100-200 dollars for a mic(s). I know in the world of recording that seems pretty cheap, but can i find some okay mics in that price range?

Also, out of those 3 devices that i mentioned, what would you personally use, and if you have one, why did you pick it?

thanks again!

[beefstew]

for that price range for mics i would say get the SP-CMC-2's and a SP-SPSB-6 batt box
and if you really like this hobby, do an upgrade later

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-2A

[atxwolfattack]

I came across this post about some 45 dollar set of omni's that are suppose to sound pretty good. Here is the post...

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,69651.0.html

and here are the actual mics on the website you buy them at...

http://www.naiant.com/studiostore/mobilemicrophones.html

would that be a good choice? Or are those not very good?




A friend of mine in dallas sent me an acoustic recording he made with          SP-CMC-4 > SP-SPSB-1 SLIMLINE BATTERY MODULE > Creative Nomad Jukebox 3

are these SP-CMC-4 mic's pretty good?
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4

and if i were to get the Zoom H4 or the M-Audio Microtrack, I would not need the battery module he used because i could use the devices phantom power correct?

thanks!

[Brian Skalinder]

If I were choosing a recording system to fit your range of interest (as if you were a prospective customer looking for a recording solution), the following seems a solid configuration fitting your requirement and maybe also within budget.

Full disclosure, in case it's not clear to newbies:  Guy's the owner of Sonic Studios (the gear he's recommending).

I was looking to spend between 100-200 dollars for a mic(s). I know in the world of recording that seems pretty cheap, but can i find some okay mics in that price range?

I'd go with a pair from Church Audio (he has an eBay store and is a frequent contributor here) or Sound Professionals.  Specific models, not so sure...but others here, or Chris, may have some valuable input.

Also, out of those 3 devices that i mentioned, what would you personally use, and if you have one, why did you pick it?

I'd go with the Edirol R-09.  I find it's build quality, ergonomics, and analog inputs superior to the MicroTrack, it's smaller than the H4, and doesn't include the bulkier unnecessary (for your purposes) attached mics (though maybe they're removable).  If I was running an external ADC, I'd use the MicroTrack since it's the only one of the three that accepts a digital input.

[Will_S]

I was looking to spend between 100-200 dollars for a mic(s). I know in the world of recording that seems pretty cheap, but can i find some okay mics in that price range?

I'd go with a pair from Church Audio (he has an eBay store and is a frequent contributor here) or Sound Professionals.  Specific models, not so sure...but others here, or Chris, may have some valuable input.

These are good suggestions, or you might check out these mics in the yard sale (no affiliation, and note you'd have to come up with windscreens and mounting hardware):

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,76921.0.html

Either of these should be a good start and work well for the kinds of music you record.  My understanding is they do better coping with really loud shows than do the most basic version of the mics I use, described next...

For a small step up, you might consider the Sound Professionals SP-CMC4U.  I have the older version, the SP-CMC4, like are for sale here (again no affiliation):

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,76284.0.html

I like the CMC-4s a lot because they have interchangeable capsules.  The cardioids are a good general purpose workhorse, but down the line you may find times you'd rather use omni capsules (to really capture the ambience of a good sounding venue) or hypercardioids (to cut down on the boominess of a lousy venue).  Note that with a standard battery box, you may have problems with distortion at really loud shows.  You could try to get someone to build you a 3 wire battery box (do a search, you'd also need to get the mic cable modified), or get the Sound Professionals version with phantom power adapters to use with a recorder that supplies phantom power.  Or you could try using the standard battery box first, I was able to successfully tape many moderately loud shows with such a set up, but it would not cut it at a heavy metal show or even a really loud indoor rock show.

Also, out of those 3 devices that i mentioned, what would you personally use, and if you have one, why did you pick it?

I'd go with the Edirol R-09.  I find it's build quality, ergonomics, and analog inputs superior to the MicroTrack, it's smaller than the H4, and doesn't include the bulkier unnecessary (for your purposes) attached mics (though maybe they're removable).  If I was running an external ADC, I'd use the MicroTrack since it's the only one of the three that accepts a digital input.

If you get mics terminated in a miniplug, this is probably the best choice.  However one advantage the Zoom H4 (which I use) has over the others is that it has XLR inputs and can provide true 48V phantom power (the Microtrack provides phantom power, but not a full 48V, and has 1/4" input jacks).  Most but by no means all of the higher end mics used by tapers use XLR inputs and require phantom power, often the full 48V.  So one advantage to the Zoom would be that if you chose to upgrade your mics later, you would not need to immediately get an expensive preamp/power supply as well.  You can also get an adapter from Sound Professionals that will let you use the H4 with miniplug mics as well.  It is however significantly bigger than the R9 or Microtrack.

Another option might be a used iRiver H120 with Rockbox installed.  Miniplug and optical digital inputs, very small, 20 G hard drive, 8 hour battery life.  Some of the refurbished units on eBay seem to have hard drive problems, so your best bet might be getting a known good one from someone reputable in the Yard Sale.

[Will_S]

I came across this post about some 45 dollar set of omni's that are suppose to sound pretty good. Here is the post...

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,69651.0.html

and here are the actual mics on the website you buy them at...

http://www.naiant.com/studiostore/mobilemicrophones.html

would that be a good choice? Or are those not very good?

I've heard these are pretty good but can have problems with really loud shows.  However, I think Naiant makes a similar model that can handle higher SPLs.

I'm not really a fan of having omnis as your only mics though.  For the money, omnidirectional mics CAN sound far better than more directional mics, but they are also the most affected (IMO) by lousy venue acoustics or chattering people in the crowd.

A friend of mine in dallas sent me an acoustic recording he made with          SP-CMC-4 > SP-SPSB-1 SLIMLINE BATTERY MODULE > Creative Nomad Jukebox 3

are these SP-CMC-4 mic's pretty good?
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4

and if i were to get the Zoom H4 or the M-Audio Microtrack, I would not need the battery module he used because i could use the devices phantom power correct?

I like them.  You would need adapters to use the built in phantom power of the Microtrack or Zoom with these mics though, you could not plug them straight in as the plug in power the mics use when wired that way is NOT the same thing as phantom power.  You could use the plug in power of the R9, but would need a battery box for loud shows.

[Chanher]

From experience, I'll say any of the AT mics (at853, u853, at943, at831) are solid. I used to use at831's for many years, now I have some at853's).

I also have a Church Audio preamp and works quite well.

If you run any of the above two into an R-9, or an iriver, you're set. There are other options that work just as well, but I have had positive experiences with the above.

[prof_peabody]

Welcome aboard.  I have used a few different Audio Technica set-ups, and would highly recommend these to start out, they are some of the best sounding mics in the price range.  If you are doing mostly loud club stuff avoid so-called 2-wire battery boxes fr powering your mics.  Chris Church makes a nice 3-wire battery box with integrated pre-amp, he also sells some nice mics in the budget price range.  Sound professionals can sell you some stealth prepared AT mics, or you can buy the mics and get someone here to help you with or make the mods.  Definitely make use of the yard sale here if you can. If you are ever in the Houston area give me a shout and I can show you some of the gear.  You can find quite a few Austin tapers in TX team thread, but I think most of the regulars there are open tapers. 

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,72563.345.html