Topic: Just about ready to order......little help..

[Rich.]

Hey peeps, almost ready to order my shit:

First of all my budget at the mo is about $270 (150 GBP). I’m not sure whether that’s gonna be enough but that’s what I have at the mo. I’m in quite a dilemma, as to be able to record the concerts I want to, I have about 2 weeks.

At the moment ill be recording on a Sony minidisk, possibly upgrading to a jb3 when I get a little more cash. The minidisk has no “mic in” socket so I will need to plug the equipment into the “line in”.

I’m looking for suggestions on a decent but affordable battery box (with bass-roll off) and a decent pair of mic’s preferably stealth ones that can be attached to my collar or could be concealed in a hat! The concerts I’m most likely to be recording are large arena shows and some small-medium sized clubs. The show I’m most wanting to record is a Incubus show which I’ll be attending on the 14th may. So any suggestions on what I should get?

Im not looking to get the best quality recordings in the world but as long as they are half decent I’m not too fussed.

Also would I need the preamplifier as this costs another $140. This would put me well over budget but if I do require it I don’t mind trying to scrape the rest of the cash together before the show, cos I don’t want to find myself needing to upgrade anytime soon.

Thanks!

[RastaFish]

If the minidisc unit you are looking at has no mic input, only a line in, you will need a pre-amp unless you are recording some seriously loud-as-shit music from right near the stacks.  Even then you would likely get low levels without a preamp.  Could you get a Sharp minidisc with a mic-in (assuming you are already decided on the minidisc format)?

[pfife]

You don't need a preamp, only a battery box to use line in on the MD.  Then, control the levels with the display on the MD recorder (if you can - certain Sony models don't have this, I believe).

I would dump most of your money into the mics - the CSB's come with a BB - then save your money for a new recorder and/or a preamp- sounds like an AD-20 would work nicely for you.


If you get mics and a battery box, that is the bare minimum you would need.  I would dump all of my money there, and skip the preamp for now.

I started with the same thing you have now, and you'll prolly get addicted to taping, which means you will want a nice pre/ external AD - which is your AD-20.  if you get a preamp now, when you want that external AD, you'll be carrying more boxes than you need.

HTH

[RastaFish]

I also had started with CoreSound binaurals > Sharp minidisc.  I was never able to get sufficient levels going straight into the line-in, the CoreSound mics just didn't put out enough signal, even when I had them right near the stacks.  The battery box simply provides power to the mics, it does nothing to boost the output signal from the mics.  YMMV, but I used this setup for about a year and my experience was that without a mic-pre I could not go line-in.  I could get levels but they were so low as to be virtually unusable.  

[Rich.]

How would I be able to tell about the recording levels. Im very doubtfull it has the function. The minidisc is the sony MZR410 model btw!

If I could get some used equipment that would be excellent! Does anyone know of any acutions on ebay at the moment that would suit my budget?

If people can direct me to some mics & battery boxes on ebay or from sound professionals that would be under my budget and of decent quality, that would be great and much appreciated.

[RastaFish]

It isn't just the minidisc units that need a pre-amp, I run CoreSound Cards these days with my D-100 DAT deck.  I am unable to use the line-in with the mics & battery box, just no way are those mics putting out enough signal for me to go line-in (and I tape loud electric shows).  I always end up using the mic-in.  A stock internal mic-pre is sufficient, it doesn't need to be some high-end external mic-pre, but the Sony minidisc unit you are talking about has no internal mic pre at all, just a straight line in, which is why I think you will be most unhappy with the results from running mics directly into the line-in.

The line input provides no gain (even if it allows you to set the levels manually), so unless your mics are outputting a line-level signal you will likely get poor results.  Some mics run hot enough to successfully run into the line-in, but my CoreSound mics never have.  I always need the gain provided by the mic pre-amp.

I bet you could find a used Sharp minidisc unit for a cheap price if you do some hunting around.  Ebay can be sketchy but if you use common sense, ask the seller questions before bidding, and use your gut instincts you can usually come out alright.  I get a lot of stuff off of Ebay, but I am pretty careful most of the time!

[pfife]

I would go SP Mics -> SP Slimline BB -> Net NZ707 Blue via line in, and kick the volume up loud on the md input.  I have also run the same thing into a NJB3, and it works fine as well, but I have to turn up the record levels, but never that high!

I don't know why you weren't getting loud enough volume, but mine was fine.

Rich- If you own this MD recorder already, look in the manual and see if you can adjust the recording level through line in... In my manual it was called 'manual recording' or something like that.  My guess would be that if you can boost the volume there, you won't need a preamp - just a battery box.

[Rich.]

The mindisc has been given to me by a friend and I dont think he has the manual! Is there any place I could check or read the manual online.

Arrrgh I really wana have a rig capable of recording, but it dosent look like its going to happen in my two week deadline!

Im going to be getting a iRiver mp3 player soon, do you think id be able to get a decent recording from that with a batt box and sp mics?  Alot of people say the recording facilty isnt up to scratch, but no one has really given me any reasons why its not up to standard!

[zhianosatch]

With your budget, buy new Sound Pro AT831s (I think CMC-2s, but I'm not sure) with a battery box for just under $200, then your pal's MD. EZ.

[Sean Gallemore]

Yeah, the CMC-2s will put out enough juice for you.

to check your MDs capabilities go to minidisc.org and look through the Equipment Browser

[RastaFish]

If you own this MD recorder already, look in the manual and see if you can adjust the recording level through line in... In my manual it was called 'manual recording' or something like that.  My guess would be that if you can boost the volume there, you won't need a preamp - just a battery box.

But remember that line-in does not apply any gain to the signal at all, so you can never "boost the volume" when using a line-input.  The level adjustments on a line-input act as an attenuator, meaning if the rec level is set at maximum, the signal coming in is not being changed at all.  At lower rec levels the signal is being attenuated down to the level you set it at.  You cannot actually "boost" the signal using a line-level input, all you can do is cut it, at best you can record it as-is.  The mic-input is just the opposite, it applies gain to the incoming signal which does actually increase the signal (it also adds noise, which is why you avoid cheap mic-pres if at all possible).  If the signal from the mics is weak to begin with, you cannot increase it using a line-input, only a pre-amp will actually add the gain you need.  If the signal from the mics is strong enough to work with the line-in you have no worries at all!  But without a mic pre you have no way to increase the levels (if you need to, you may not).

[Rich.]

What are the cheapest decent mics on sound professionals?

[zhianosatch]

The SP-CMC-2s, remember?

[Sean Gallemore]

yep, $120 for the pair and they sound nice

battery box is another $60, $80 if you want bass roll-off

that's well below your budget

[Rich.]

Someone give me a direct link to the mics. When I searched for the mics there was 12 differnt items!

[pfife]

But remember that line-in does not apply any gain to the signal at all, so you can never "boost the volume" when using a line-input.  The level adjustments on a line-input act as an attenuator, meaning if the rec level is set at maximum, the signal coming in is not being changed at all.  At lower rec levels the signal is being attenuated down to the level you set it at.  You cannot actually "boost" the signal using a line-level input, all you can do is cut it, at best you can record it as-is.  The mic-input is just the opposite, it applies gain to the incoming signal which does actually increase the signal (it also adds noise, which is why you avoid cheap mic-pres if at all possible).  If the signal from the mics is weak to begin with, you cannot increase it using a line-input, only a pre-amp will actually add the gain you need.  If the signal from the mics is strong enough to work with the line-in you have no worries at all!  But without a mic pre you have no way to increase the levels (if you need to, you may not).

Fact is, I ran SP Binaurals -> Slimline Battery Box -> Line In on the Sony MD, hundreds of times.

The BB gives the gain.  The only thing the mic input does on that is supply 1.5v.  Battery box supplies that and then some.

You increase the levels on the MD recorder.  I have done it a million times.

[Sean Gallemore]

How does a Battery Box without a preamp give you gain?

[pfife]

How does a Battery Box without a preamp give you gain?

Sorry... I mean power.

It gave plenty of power to use the line in.  Then, you hit record and pause at the same time.  Hit enter.  Hit left until you come to manual record.  Hit enter.  Then, the track left and track right buttons will increase/decrease the record level.  See page 33-34 on the MZ-N707 Manual.

Exactly how I did it every time on my Net NZ707.  I have used the same thing on the NJB3, setting the input to line in, and adjusting the record level.  On the NJB3, I usually never had to add anything, except the once, when I had it to about +6 on the record level for Leo Kottke.


All I am suggesting here is that if he is going to become a taping addict, like us, then he is going to want to upgrade.  Most logical upgrade is going to be a preamp, one that is better than a SP or CS preamp, such as teh AD-20, or something else with an A/D Converter.  So why buy 2 preamps?  I have done a bunch of recordings w/ mics -> battery box -> Sony MD.  Worked fine.  Sounds better w/ a pre, but works fine w/o it.

Why does this not seem like reasonable advice?

[Sean Gallemore]

yeah, sony's are a pain in the ass, go with a sharp

[AT853rxwh]

ok, prolly gonna get flamed but here ya go for ebay links


$95 gets you a set of mics and a preamp

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3278&item=3721121009

A cheaper option with just mics and a battery box would be giant squids from ebay $83

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=15056&item=3093983372&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

I have a set of the visivox mics and they arent too bad...  Have heard that folks have good results from giant squid too...

As for getting a NJB3 Check Ebay, Creative has been selling em on Ebay... This one with 20min to go is only going for $140ish  

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=15058&item=3094346342

They have been putting em up for $169, so the mics with the njb3 would still be under $270, and you could easily upgrade the mics (if you go the squid route prolly would be easier to upgrade as they are more recognized)

[Rich.]

Thanks for the ebay links! Do those come with a bass-roll of option, as it mentions something about them but dosent say anything about the option been included?

[Rich.]

The mics and battery box from giant squid are lookin quite promissing!
The bass roll off seems to be built into the mics, is this a good idea? How would this work, would it just decrease the bass depending on the loudness of the show?

Thanks, Rich.

[AT853rxwh]

Giant Squid website

http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/gs-poweredbattery1.htm

[John Kelly]

Here's everything you need:
http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=18069

[Rich.]

Thanks for the squid site. Call me stupid, but I cant find much information on the mics!

[Rich.]

Here's everything you need:
http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=18069

Hmm, interesting.

The bass roll off on the sp bat boxes; what are the mode's, does it completly get rid of all the bass from a  show or does it just "lower" it to a suitable level?

Also, has anyone got any info on the roll off on the giant squid mics?

Thanks, Rich.

[zhianosatch]

I'm selling my pair to todd e. Darren will customize the roll-off setting to your recorder.
You will have much better results in shitty live environments using the SP-CMC-2s, the 831s, which will keep you under your budget and get good results simultaneous-lovin' style...

[leegeddy]

Here's everything you need:
http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=18069

Hmm, interesting.

The bass roll off on the sp bat boxes; what are the mode's, does it completly get rid of all the bass from a  show or does it just "lower" it to a suitable level?

Also, has anyone got any info on the roll off on the giant squid mics?

Thanks, Rich.

rich;

if you're going with SP mics, consider my buddy's SP batt box. he just upgraded to phantom power/pre and wants to sell his SP batt box w/rolloff for cheap.

marc

[Rich.]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3093983372&category=15056&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBWA%3AIT&rd=1

^Does this include mics and box? I emailed Darren & for an extra $15 he would include the optional bass-roll off!

All this number/code talk confuses me! What are the 831's?

[leegeddy]

Does this include mics and box? I emailed Darrend for an extra $15 he would include the optional bass-roll off!

All this number/code talk confuses me! What are the 831's?

831's are "Audio Technica AT831 cardioid condenser microphones".  they are VERY small and are great mics for stealthing.  imho, they are much better than the Squid mics.  i've ran AT831 mics in the past, and they are quite nice.

SP (SoundProfessional) sells them under their name as "CMC-2".  SP models' outputs are modified so you can run the mics with SP's battery box.

marc

[John Kelly]

Except the link I posted were to some other Audio Technica mics, the at933s, which are even better than the 831s.  Seriously check out that sale in the Yard Sale section.  Comes with the battery box with level control, bass roll off...  

It's the exact same rig I ran for about a year.  You can't beat it for $180.  Link again:

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=18069

[zhianosatch]

Is someone selling 933s for $180? Good deal. Dude, get on that like NOW. Forget all that eBay business!

[caymanreview]

the at933s are sweet, and they are a little smaller than the other at mics

180 is a great deal for those

[John Kelly]

But it's those mics AND a battery box with bass rolloff and level control.  I paid twice as much for all that stuff!

[caymanreview]

i also paid 100 bones more than that for my stuff, without the level control, but i had cards, hypers, and omni caps

[Rich.]

Roll of questions:

How exactly does the bas roll of work. On the sp bat box when you have the bass roll off in effect does it cut out all the bass out or just normalize it?

And with the squid mics that have the bass roll built into the mic's, how does that work?

Anyone know if im gonna need it for recording a Incubus arena gig?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3093983372&category=15056&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBWA%3AIT&rd=1

Also, does anyone know if that auction above is for the battery box and mics?

Cheers.

[Sean Gallemore]

the bass roll-off on the SP battery boxes are usually switch selectable.  They can range from hardly any roll-off to tons (69-888 htz i think)

If you've ever looked at a frequency response graph, bass roll off makes the bass (left) side of the chart slope down more.  This turns the bass down in a plesant, algorithmic fashion.

The bass roll-off isn't built into the mics, it's inside the battery box.

You will need bass roll-off with the GSOs in an arena.

That auction is probably for the mics and the BB, but you can always ask darren, it's his auction

Honestly get the SP-CMC-8s in the yard sale.  It's everything you will need and you'll be heaps happier with the performance.

[Rich.]

Honestly get the SP-CMC-8s in the yard sale.  It's everything you will need and you'll be heaps happier with the performance.

Thats still a option and im considering it. Are they still for sale?

Whats the differnce between the " Omni" mics & the "cardioid" mics?

[F.O.Bean]

omni mics are a 360* mic pattern, meaning if youre stealthing and its chatty, youll pick it up, even behind you

howvere, cardoids are a more directional pickup, and are more aimed at your source(stage), you will get a LIL LESS CHATTER THAN OMNIS AND A "FULL", "LIFELIKE" RECORDING

sorry bout the caps

[Rich.]

Hmm, I think im gonna go with the squid mics for now, I no im gonna have to upgrade eventually anyway. With the money ive saved I can get a mp3 player so its all good.

So.....which mics shall I get the "cardioid mics" or the "omnis" I think ill be better with the "cardoid" ones cos I dont really want to pick up much talking and singing etc!
But..the cardoid mics wont have the switchable bas roll off just the automatic roll off! Will this be ok do ya think?

Cheers for ya help people, youve been a great help!

[Sean Gallemore]

I would get the omnis if you are getting GS brand.  The specs are way better

[Rich.]

So whats it to be then, the omni's?

[Sean Gallemore]

for Giant squid? yes, and get the bass roll-off