Topic: Portable recorder

[Vurki]

Hello

I just bough a pair of Rode NT1-A microphones. Now I need a recorder and preamplifier for them. Use is field recording, many things like nature, vehicles, whatever. As we know, those Rodes are extremely quiet (self noise 5dB), and in field there are sometimes very quiet sounds, so I need a quiet preamp too. What recorder fits for me? I have been thinking of Fostex FR2-LE, it seems very good. Low noise level is the most important thing, of course I also need two Phantom-powered XLR inputs for mics (more is better for surround experiments, but two is fine too) and practicality is also a nice feature. Budget is 500€, I think it's about 650$. Is the Fostex best for me or is there some better?

Sorry if there're many threads like this, I'm not very familiar with these English-language forums, so my ability to use search is limited. If you can find threads that consider this same subject, I will be very grateful.

Thank you!

[Belexes]

FR2-LE or Marantz 661 would fit the bill.

[Ozpeter]

This site has noise ratings for many recorders -

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

Indeed, the FR2-LE has very low noise preamps, but unfortunately a noisy headphone output.  If you get one, ignore that noise and plug it into an external amp or copy the files into your computer, and then you'll get the best sound.

[John Willett]

Indeed, the FR2-LE has very low noise preamps, but unfortunately a noisy headphone output.  If you get one, ignore that noise and plug it into an external amp or copy the files into your computer, and then you'll get the best sound.

The original FR-2 had a headphone amp. optimised for low current consumption to maximise the battery life of the recorder.

I found that low impedance headphones were best and you needed them to be efficient as well - I found the Sennheiser HD 25-1 worked best as they are 120dB efficient (much more than most others) so you can get a good monitoring level and keep the amplifier turned down.  Certainly I did not find the FR-2LE very noisy when I reviewed it - but I *was* using the HD 25-1 headphones while I did the review.

[refrain]

Go for the Fostex FR2-LE, i've got a similar ring, a FR-2 LE (for the same subject - field rec) but with a Rode NTG3, and it's very quiet, also use the HD25 headphones, and I find the head pre-amp nice, not very noisy... remember that you need a windshield for outdoor use, perhaps a rode, the rycote are really good (better) but to expensive...

CS

[rastasean]

The original FR-2 had a headphone amp. optimised for low current consumption to maximise the battery life of the recorder.

I found that low impedance headphones were best and you needed them to be efficient as well - I found the Sennheiser HD 25-1 worked best as they are 120dB efficient (much more than most others) so you can get a good monitoring level and keep the amplifier turned down.  Certainly I did not find the FR-2LE very noisy when I reviewed it - but I *was* using the HD 25-1 headphones while I did the review.

Do you think a headphone amp could be used in between the 2le and headphones?
something like this: http://www.jdslabs.com/products.php


another very nice thing about the 2le is that it uses rc 7.2 volt batteries so I would invest in that since the rode nt1a requires phantom power and 4 AA batteries will not last forever.

[willndmb]

what do you guys use/need the headphone amp for?

i have gone out of the rca plugs (which is controlled volume wise by the headphone knob)  into a camcorder and found it to work fine

[rastasean]

what do you guys use/need the headphone amp for?

i have gone out of the rca plugs (which is controlled volume wise by the headphone knob)  into a camcorder and found it to work fine

so to monitor the audio and not use the headphone amp, you recommend connecting a camcorder?

[Belexes]

I don't tend to monitor my recordings while taping on the FR2-LE (headphones) or playback on it, so the noise in the headphone input hasn't ever been an issue for me.

[Vurki]

This is a great forum, so much replies this fast!

So. It seems like FR2-LE is very good. I don't think the heaphone amp noise is a problem... I mean, monitoring isn't usually that accurate. You can't do any exact analyse in nature no matter what kind of equipment you have, it's enough if you can find out when it clips and does the sound of a distant car come in - and all that can be done with meters on the screen, so actually, monitoring isn't that important. It doesn't require high quality for my use.

About that

This site has noise ratings for many recorders -

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

Indeed, the FR2-LE has very low noise preamps, but unfortunately a noisy headphone output.  If you get one, ignore that noise and plug it into an external amp or copy the files into your computer, and then you'll get the best sound.

I actually found that site some time ago, I just somehow didn't really notice it. Ty for posting, it's useful. According to that site, Marantz 661 is a little noisier than Fostex, not big differences, but it's also a little more expensive than Fostex, so in general, is Fostex better? Or is there something good in that Marantz that I just don't see? Suggestions of other recorders are also welcomed, if there're any.

[rastasean]

This is a great forum, so much replies this fast!

I actually found that site some time ago, I just somehow didn't really notice it. Ty for posting, it's useful. According to that site, Marantz 661 is a little noisier than Fostex, not big differences, but it's also a little more expensive than Fostex, so in general, is Fostex better? Or is there something good in that Marantz that I just don't see? Suggestions of other recorders are also welcomed, if there're any.

I think there are pretty extensive reviews on the two but the main reason people like the 661 is because of the digital I/O which the 2le lacks.
If you read the reviews on b&h for both of these units, the vast majority of all 20 people (10 on 2le and 10 on 661) have been pleased with it. the 2le takes CF cards so be sure to get those and NOT sd cards.

[Belexes]

I don't think you could make much of a mistake between the both of them.  Both are nice "all in one" decks when you can't afford the SD 7xx series.

[willndmb]

what do you guys use/need the headphone amp for?

i have gone out of the rca plugs (which is controlled volume wise by the headphone knob)  into a camcorder and found it to work fine

so to monitor the audio and not use the headphone amp, you recommend connecting a camcorder?

no
i am saying that i have gone out into my camcorder and i have compared the audio on the video to the audio on the fr2le and not noticed much if any difference
ie i don't see a big problem with the rca (if they are actually connected to the headphone amp - which i would assume since the same volume knob works both)

[Vurki]

Ok. I browsed couple of reviews and it seems that both 661 and FR2-LE are good, but I somehow prefer Fostex. Like Belexes said, I probably can't make a big mistake. And I don't think I'll have use for digital I/O (I'll probably only connect it to mics, headphones and computer). The only thing that I'm still thinking is the noise level. It seems like Fostex has a little lower level, but then, what do you think: could I utilize my Rodes significantly better if I'd buy a 1000€ recorder? I won't probably do that because there simply isn't enough money, but I'm wondering that if I will buy this Fostex or Marantz, do I kinda lose a little of Rodes' potential concerning the noise? I don't want to do that... of course, with 500€ you can't get the best, but how close to the best?

[fmaderjr]

I'm a bit puzzled by the responses because it seems to me that the original posted did not start out asking about all in one decks. He was asking about a recorder and preamp.

I'm in the minority-I hate my FR-2LE. Not enough gain to satisfy me for acoustic music, so its hard for me to see how it would be great for nature without an external pre. I guess I must be wrong, given all the positive responses about it, but I'm a bit surprised to hear it works well for nature. I would sell the damn thing but when Busman finally got it working correctly, he left a part rattling around inside that I`` can't get out, so nobody would want it.

If you want an external pre, I would get a MixPre or MP-2 (very quiet) and a smaller recorder like an Edirol R-09HR or Sony PCM-M10. The Marantz 661 would also be great if it fits the budget & you want the option of going digi-in later. The fact that it may be a tiny bit noisier than the FR2-LE would be irrelevant if you are using it with a preamp. I would never get a FR2-LE if I was going to be using an external pre anyway.

[Vurki]

I'm a bit puzzled by the responses because it seems to me that the original posted did not start out asking about all in one decks. He was asking about a recorder and preamp.

I'm in the minority-I hate my FR-2LE. Not enough gain to satisfy me for acoustic music, so its hard for me to see how it would be great for nature without an external pre. I guess I must be wrong, given all the positive responses about it, but I'm a bit surprised to hear it works well for nature. I would sell the damn thing but when Busman finally got it working correctly, he left a part rattling around inside that I`` can't get out, so nobody would want it.

If you want an external pre, I would get a MixPre or MP-2 (very quiet) and a smaller recorder like an Edirol R-09HR or Sony PCM-M10. The Marantz 661 would also be great if it fits the budget & you want the option of going digi-in later. The fact that it may be a tiny bit noisier than the FR2-LE would be irrelevant if you are using it with a preamp. I would never get a FR2-LE if I was going to be using an external pre anyway.

I never thought of separate preamp and recorder, I ment all in one decks, but now that you mentioned, separate boxes are an option. Noise is still the biggest issue, but of course budget can't really yield, so I don't know if there's a better choice than FR2-LE or 661. Separate preamp and recorder will be pretty expensive... MixPre seems to cost +700€, and for example Edirol R-09 HR almost 300€, so it'll do 1000€, which is way too much. And Sound Devices'page says MixPre's equivalent input noise is -126 dBu when FR2-LE's it's -129 dBu (according to http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm). Naturally that's not all, but I'm wondering if those under 1000€ equipment can make better quality (=less noise) than FR?

E: fmaderjr, according to your experience, do you think FR2-LE with Rode NT1-A would be good enough for example recording sounds from ship deck? I won't probably use my gear to record quet summerdays, mostly different kind of vehicles. I have used Zoom H2 to record train station and there was so much noise that it worked, but for example, inside a train, it will be more quiet - will it fit for that?

[fmaderjr]

Vurki-Sorry i misread what you were asking about. I'm not the one to ask about the FR2-LE. I'm obviously a hater. If the noises you are recording are not extrewmely quiet, I guess it would work fine, but you will get responses from people who regularly use their FR2-LE and will know better than me. I'm still guessing the Marantz 661 would be far more convenient to use (good battery life with standard batteries, smaller, and option to go digi-in later). I'm guessing that the FR2-LE's "slightly less noisy preamp" might not really be an audible improvement, but I have no way to know for sure. Someone who has used both may chime in.

[Vurki]

Vurki-Sorry i misread what you were asking about. I'm not the one to ask about the FR2-LE. I'm obviously a hater. If the noises you are recording are not extrewmely quiet, I guess it would work fine, but you will get responses from people who regularly use their FR2-LE and will know better than me. I'm still guessing the Marantz 661 would be far more convenient to use (good battery life with standard batteries, smaller, and option to go digi-in later). I'm guessing that the FR2-LE's "slightly less noisy preamp" might not really be an audible improvement, but I have no way to know for sure. Someone who has used both may chime in.

Ok. I actually would like to record those "extremely quiet" sounds, but I have came to the conclusion that it's just impossible with my budget. Of course, with shotgun mics and dishes it's possible, but ambiences with some distant birds, no way. It would require a gear of tens of thousands of euros. So I'll do some less quiet stuff, but still, Zoom is way too noisy.

I think the difference of noise levels beetween 661 and FR isn't big, but also, those both seem practical and 661 is a little more expensive. So, don't know yet... all the suggestions are welcomed but in the end, this starts to come clear.

[rastasean]

consider joining the nature recordist yahoo group:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists/

When buying electronics I spend weeks researching it and reading/watching almost every review I can on it so I don't make a rash decision that I will regret later on. There are reviews of the 2le on this board so read those and I know for a fact people have written about the 2le on the nature recordist group before. You will get people who nitpick down to the color of the recorder or the backlight of the display so you'll have to filter some stuff out if it is not relevant to you and eventually make a decision.

Will you be using a stereo pair of the rode nt1a or a single one? if you have a single one, would you upgrade to a stereo pair eventually?

good luck!

[Vurki]

Thanks for the link. I sent my joining request. I definitely want to be sure of my choose, for me these are expensive purchases...

I will use stereo pair. Why asking?

[Vurki]

Comparing the two recoders:

Fostex FR2-LE
+ Slightly better preamps
+ Cheaper

Marantz 661
+ Better headphone amp
+ Digital I/O
+ Small
+ Can delete files
+ Uses SD cards
+ Higher gain???

The differences aren't big, but there still are pretty many things that are better in Marantz. Headphone amp: for monitoring I don't need the best quality, but if I'm travelling, it would be nice to be able to listen to the recordings. And deleting and Flash cards are also related to this: I don't want to buy large Flash cards because of their price, and if I don't have a lot of space, I'd need to delete files... Digital I/O. I currently don't have any use for that, but it is possible that I will buy sometimes for example an external preamp, and then the digi I/O would be useful (I guess it'll be less noisy if I'll use digital input instead of analog). Size is not that important, both are small enough. Price is an important thing but the differences aren't huge and those Flash cards are more expensive than SDs, so that doesn't really matter. Then there's this gain thing, someones say that Fostex' gain is too low, true?

So the things that I want to know are: a) is the difference of the noise levels significant, can you in practice hear it, b) does the Fostex' heaphone output's noise really disturb and c) is there a clear difference between the gain levels? According to specs (for example http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm), it seems like Fostex would be clearly less noisy than Marantz (4 dBu), but I don't really know how to read those specs. I mean, four dBs is a clear difference, can it really be that much?

[fmaderjr]

I think the convenience factors are significant. If the preamp quality of the 2 recorders are close, I think choosing the Marantz would be a no brainer even if it costs a bit more.

The FR2-LE's headphone amp is very poor in quality, especially when a lot of amplification is needed. I hated having to use 7.2 volt RC batteries with the Fostex to get good battery life and the recorder completely drains the batteries within 2 weeks if left in the recorder. Also the Fostex does not seem to provide a lot of gain for acoustic performances, let alone nature.

[flipp]

If a seperate pre is a possibility look at the Naiant Studios LittleBox. It is handmade by a TS member and can be customized. It is also one of the least expensive pres I know of. Links to sales and tech spec pages are in the first post of the following thread:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=128321.0

[fmaderjr]

I love my littlebox and now actually use it much more than my MixPre. I recommended the MixPre because I thought that possibly the littlebox didn't provide enough gain to be optimal for nature recordings. However I would much rather use a littlebox/(R-09HR or Sony PCM-M10) combo than use a FR2-LE as a single box system no matter what I was recording.  Cost & total size would be similar with more gain and a better feature set.

[refrain]

Didn't you said in the begining of the thread that you'll be using the recorder for field recordings? I mean, outdoor capture of sound? Enviroments usually are noisy, if you're recording urban soudscapes, that won't make a big diference, perhaps in remote nature settings you'll hear that diference in using the mics, anyway the Rode NT1 are large diaphragm mics, so huge to carry around in the field, and the options for whidshields are very rare... I don't know how we get into this mics-preamp-recorder situation... if you want a all-in-one option, easier to carry anywhere, the Marantz 661 will be much nicer, because it has onboard mics and XLR input phantom mics, you could also consider the Tascam DR-100 and the Zoom H4n... (the best preamps are the 661, but the onboard mics are the H4n), but if you want good preamps, and you cant get a SD machine, the the Fostex is the way to go... but i'm a bit confused with the way the thread turn out, you should specify first the recording situations you want... and not get tangled in this tecno rush...

[sunjan]

If you want an external pre, I would get a MixPre or MP-2 (very quiet) and a smaller recorder like an Edirol R-09HR or Sony PCM-M10.

What he said. there was a pretty long thread last year (use the search) with a female taper doing ambient recordings with a Rode mic. The conclusion in her case was that the mixpre offered superior gain, paired up with a R-09HR, M10 or similar. YMMV.

[Vurki]

I came to the conclusion that I can't know which one is better if I don't try myself, so I ordered FR2-LE and if it doesn't fit for my use, I'll return it and order 661. I just have to test. However, your help has been very useful, I learned to see different faces of recording gear, thank you all I'll post some review somewhere after I have used FR for some time... and I may as well post some recordings.