Topic: Help choosing portable recorder w/ best quality from internal mics

[ghiromax]

Hi everybody,

I'm new on the forum and after some homework reading previous threads I'm posting here my 1st topic...

I started the hunt for a portable recorder for electric music recording (blues, jazz, rock), in studio and live concerts (small to mid venues).
Budget up to max 500 EUR (to include Nagra Lino and Korg MR-2) if really worth the extra money.
Main task will be recording high quality audio for audio-video clips used to support sales of a musical instrument, so I need the best (within reason) sound quality. Clips will be posted not only in youtube but in other higher quality services like Vimeo.

It will be possible using external mics in studio, but for concert recordings I would prefer using internal mics, so the best quality out of them will be a top important feature.
In studio the presence of adaptors or external box for supplying phantom power if needed, will be acceptable so XLR are not a must, even though welcome


I made a short list divided in 3 price categories; after reading some reports on the various sites I’m a bit concerned about the sound signature of Zoom units and their build quality, so I let them out from the list:

Low Cost
1.   Sony PCM-M10 -  210 Eur
Great reviews, Quiet preamps, but I’m not sure its omni mics are the best for the intended application
2.    Tascam DR-40  - 210 EUR
Great features, but hissy noisy preamps, some doubts on overall sound quality
3.   Olympus L-14  - 220 EUR.
Interesting features, but too new unit on the market: no reviews…

Mid Cost
1.   Marantz PMD 620 MkII
Great build quality,  can operate most external mini mics without ext. boxes, concerns about sound quality from internal mics
2.   AEQ-L300, Intermedia PAW-V around 350 EUR
Nagra Lino's siblings at lower price 

High Cost
1.   Korg MR-2  - 470 EUR
Not so many reviews, but seems to have great audio quality
2.   Nagra Lino – 450 EUR
As above; there are significant differences between the  similar units on the market made by the same supplier ? Savings may be significant, but the only reviews I’ve found are in Chinese and I have some doubts interpreting the google translation…i
3.   Tascam DR-100 MkII – 390 EUR
Great reviews on average, but some concerns about the sound quality (compared to other similar priced units)
4.   Olympus LS-100  - 380 EUR
I didn’t find so many reviews/comparisons here as well. Some seems to praise the audio quality, with some complaints about the operations of the machine (not a big issue in my case considering the task)

Prices are in EUR since I’m based in Czech Republic
As you easily understand I’m more than a newbie so any suggestion/comments from experts forum members who had their hands on these units will be highly appreciated

Thanks a lot to all

Max

[yates7592]

It might be over your budget but the best internal mics I have heard on a recorder are on the Sony D50

[TimSmith]

I own a Sony PCM-M10 and find it's mics pretty decent. But they are omni-derectional, so can't record good stereo.
Here you can find a couple of samples from my recording: http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=442307

I don't have much listening/recording experience with various recorders, but I noticed that Zoom internal mics are certainly better than on Olympus LS-10 (old model).

But if your main goal is best possible quality for 500 EUR - buy cheaper recorder with external mics. Generally speaking 200EUR recorder + 300EUR mics will give you better sound and more flexibility (various mic configs and placement) than 500EUR recorder alone. I am sure, many people will agree with that.

[techgui]

The Tascam Dr-2d has cardioid mics and I'm pretty happy with mine.  Not as quiet as the M10, but more flexibility and cards rather than Omni's.

[F.O.Bean]

If you need SUPER HQ sound, you NEED external mics. PERIOD!!!

[ghiromax]

Thanks to all for replies,

if no evidence of significant improvement in quality will come stepping up to Korg MR-2 or Nagra Lino (and siblings), I will stay with M-10, unless a super deal will appear on a D50 ...  ,

PS Has been the Dr-2 discontinued ? it is still listed on Tascam site, but is not available from the major on-line retailers in Germany
 

[swordfish]

Thanks to all for replies,

if no evidence of significant improvement in quality will come stepping up to Korg MR-2 or Nagra Lino (and siblings), I will stay with M-10, unless a super deal will appear on a D50 ...  ,

PS Has been the Dr-2 discontinued ? it is still listed on Tascam site, but is not available from the major on-line retailers in Germany

Why don't you by it here, add additional warranty to it pay the tax good to go, once in a while they sell it for 99 $...

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/tascam-dr-2d-portable-digital-recorder

just my 2 cents

[Ozpeter]

You could argue - if you were in the mood - that any small recorder in combination with in-ear mics  is much the same as using the recorder with its built in mics.   I mean, you've still only got one thing in your hand.   

Here I've been tinkering with Roland CS 10-EM in-ears and I'm astonished at their quality - though I've not yet had the chance to try them on live music, I admit.  Of course they work with the M10 (and their stereo soundfield is 1000x better than the M10's mics) but even with a cheap Sony voice recorder (ICD-SX750) the results are very good, and the small, light recorder tucks into any pocket easily.  Just looks like you are listening to something rather than recording.  Frequency response is good - picks up traffic rumble nicely, and also the (hitherto unsuspected) high frequency squeal emitted by a friend's power wheelchair (shows as a big spike just below 20kHz when the chair is moving).

[ghiromax]

Which is the best deal you have seen on D-50 recently?

I saw it at 399 USD on bhpotovideo. there is anything better around ?

Their shipping to EU is very expensive, I don't know if it's the right place to ask for, but... there is any "angel" willing to ship it as a gift to Czech Republic   .

Thanks to all

[ghiromax]

oops, reading it again I see my last post may be not clear, I'm sorry for that ...I meant:

.... there is some member willing to help me shipping me the D-50 after I paid it, possibly indicating in the custom declaration it is a gift just to avoid custom expenses ...

 

[Red Boink]

About three years ago, I bought a sony pcm d1 on ebay for $800US.  Arrived like new and it makes beautiful recordings.  A bit over your budget, but hey.  My usual set up is schoeps>an andy cooper cs104>mytek 192 adc>fostex fr2.  But when travelling light, the d1 holds up.  Also makes a great presence mic on larger productions.

Best,

John

[ghiromax]

I would like to thank everyone for the suggestions, with your support and reading a couple of other threads, I finally took my decision.

Even though I would like the idea of M50 (and even more of M1) I couldn't get any decent deal this side of the pond, so M10, CA14 cards + CA11 omnis are on the way 

And now I have to start to learn how to get the best out of this equipment... but I've found the best forum for that

Happy taping to everybody

Max

[LikeASong]

I would like to thank everyone for the suggestions, with your support and reading a couple of other threads, I finally took my decision.

Even though I would like the idea of M50 (and even more of M1) I couldn't get any decent deal this side of the pond, so M10, CA14 cards + CA11 omnis are on the way 

And now I have to start to learn how to get the best out of this equipment... but I've found the best forum for that

Happy taping to everybody

Max

I would have done it the other way round, CA11 cards and CA14 omnis. But well done anyway - you'll be a happy taper in no time

[earmonger]

One thing you may want to add to that setup is a battery box. It's a little box that  provides power to the mics so that they have better dynamic range and can handle superloud sounds better.  The M10 provides <3v of power to mics through the mic jack, but if you use a battery box you'll get 9V or 12V (depending on the box) and record through Line-in, and get improved sound.

Church Audio makes a battery box--you might be able to add it to your existing order--or you can get one more quickly from SoundProfessionals.

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-10

Microphone Madness also makes one, but I've found that they wear out and the lifetime warranty seems difficult to use--I sent one back to the company and never saw it again.

http://www.microphonemadness.com/products/mmcbmminminc.htm

You can also just record through Mic-In with the mics you're getting and see how that works out--which should be pretty well.

 

[aaronji]

I would like to thank everyone for the suggestions, with your support and reading a couple of other threads, I finally took my decision.

Even though I would like the idea of M50 (and even more of M1) I couldn't get any decent deal this side of the pond, so M10, CA14 cards + CA11 omnis are on the way 

And now I have to start to learn how to get the best out of this equipment... but I've found the best forum for that

Happy taping to everybody

Max

I would have done it the other way round, CA11 cards and CA14 omnis. But well done anyway - you'll be a happy taper in no time

Why?  I think I read somewhere here that Chris thinks the new CA-11 omnis are better than the 14s? Curious to hear them...

[Chimney Top]

The Olympus LS series is good.  I would get the LS-100.  If it recorded 4 or more tracks simultaneously I would have bought that instead of the Roland R-26.

[LikeASong]

I would like to thank everyone for the suggestions, with your support and reading a couple of other threads, I finally took my decision.

Even though I would like the idea of M50 (and even more of M1) I couldn't get any decent deal this side of the pond, so M10, CA14 cards + CA11 omnis are on the way 

And now I have to start to learn how to get the best out of this equipment... but I've found the best forum for that

Happy taping to everybody

Max

I would have done it the other way round, CA11 cards and CA14 omnis. But well done anyway - you'll be a happy taper in no time

Why?  I think I read somewhere here that Chris thinks the new CA-11 omnis are better than the 14s? Curious to hear them...

Aaaahh I think it was Old CA11s, not the new CA11 Series-II!! Then it's a completely smart move yup

[ghiromax]

Happy to hear that my rationale taking the decision was correct, I've read so many posts in the last 10 days that I could have easily misunderstood something  ... 

I missed to mention it, but I have ordered the Ugly Battery Box as well 

[LikeASong]

You will start pulling amazing tapes in no time. Congrats

[Scooter123]

Best Recorder with Internal Mikes

Is like trying to select the best microwave that has the best built in toaster oven. 

The internals on all these machines are all crappy cheap ominis that probably cost the manufacturer $5.

That said, pick the recorder for the recording quality, not the internals, because I don't think there is a difference and you will get externals soon.

[LikeASong]

I don't agree with that, Scooter.

Are external mics better than the internal? Yes. Are DSLR cameras better than cameras built into phones? Yes. So what? You can still ask for the handheld recorder with the best internal microphones exactly the same as you can ask for the cell phone with the best camera. Maybe the opening poster doesn't need the bit of extra quality that the external mics would provide, exactly the same as most of us don't need the extra quality that DSLR cameras provide and stick with our cellphones for the day photography.

[Ozpeter]

The internals on all these machines are all crappy cheap ominis that probably cost the manufacturer $5.

  Not the case as far as the pickup pattern is concerned.  I suspect that the majority of built in mics are cardioid pattern, which is the only way you can get a worthwhile stereo image if the mics are closely spaced (inevitable with such devices).  There are some exceptions, eg the M10, which does use omnis, and suffers accordingly.

[Chrisedge]

Is anyone modifying an inexpensive recorder like the M10 with better mics? (And battery power?)

[earmonger]

Much better to invest in external mics than a mod. I suppose if you were putting the PCM-M10 on a tripod mounted high you would want top-of-the-range mics in there but if you're just holding it and pointing it at the sound, handling noise is going to be worse than imaging problems.

Ozpeter, I know you think the M10's omnis are too close for good stereo but:

1) isn't there a simple plugin to fix it and
2) I've actually gotten decent stereo imaging with them. They don't feel totally mono to me on headphone playback.

[dogmusic]

2) I've actually gotten decent stereo imaging with them. They don't feel totally mono to me on headphone playback.

I have to agree on this. I use the M10 a lot for recording ambience and odd sounds and jam sessions. The stereo image is great for my purposes -- not at all too narrow -- and the mics sound good, i.e., a fairly realistic capture with a lot of bottom end.

Maybe the M10 mics need a burning-in period, and users give up on them too soon.

[Ozpeter]

Yes, there is a plugin which can improve matters, but I'd rather have a correct stereo image from the outset.  Yes, the M10 has plenty of bottom end but low frequencies are captured in mono so they clump to the centre.  High frequencies are captured with more separation (all of this being what you'd expect from angled omnis closely spaced) and therefore the stereo image is skewed by frequency (high to edges, low to centre).   No, you can't modify the device to use cardioid mics because the whole mic housing is designed for omnis (no access to the rear of the capsule).  Yes, I bang on about this far too much! 

[dogmusic]

high to edges, low to centre

Sounds like a hit record to me.