Topic: Running multi mics on same source?

[Evil Taper]

Hey, has anyone ever run a multi mic configuration for the same source?

What I'm looking at doing is running a pair of large diaphram condensors towards the stage and then an omni on either side, which would then all be directed to a preamp box and then out to recorder.  Just pondering this and wondering if it could possibly result in a more full sounding recording, the clearness of the condensors mixing with the ambience of the omnis.  All would be configured on a stand of course.  Pros and cons please.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

I few times I ran my oktava MC012 cards DIN and also mixed in a pair of Low Cost CSB (Omni's). I used my UA5 to mix and was very happy with the results.

I didn't have another source to compare(from the same night) but from other recordings I have made it the same venue, it made a noticable improvement.

Give it a try. If you're not willing to chance it on an "important" show go tape a local band.

MIKE B

[Evil Taper]

Yeah i was just gonna try it at a local venue where i know the band so i can plug in my pre/processor.

[hexyjones]

Hey, has anyone ever run a multi mic configuration for the same source?

What I'm looking at doing is running a pair of large diaphram condensors towards the stage and then an omni on either side, which would then all be directed to a preamp box and then out to recorder.  Just pondering this and wondering if it could possibly result in a more full sounding recording, the clearness of the condensors mixing with the ambience of the omnis.  All would be configured on a stand of course.  Pros and cons please.

You need to be more specific here....the "then all be directed to a preamp box" part has me worried...are you using a mixer...?

The cons would be the possibility of some unwanted phase cancellation/reinforcement...

Are the omnis condenser or dynamic mics?

[Evil Taper]

Omnis are condensors.  What they would be routed through is a Behringer Tube Ultragain MIC200 and then directly into my JB3.  Should I also bring along a mixer or not?  The MIC200 can run 8 sources simultaneously, all at 48v phamtom power.  It's mostly just an idea i'm toying with right now but something I'd like to try for improving the sound of small venue recordings done in bars and cafes.

[Evil Taper]

On another note...has anyone ever tried adding a kick mic to their configuration?  Don't really know if this would be a positive of any kind but just something I thought of.

[jpschust]

On another note...has anyone ever tried adding a kick mic to their configuration?  Don't really know if this would be a positive of any kind but just something I thought of.

well are you talking for on stage or just a kick mic placed how?  (btw kick mics have usually the most awful response once you reach the mid range)

[wbrisette]

Hey, has anyone ever run a multi mic configuration for the same source?

What I'm looking at doing is running a pair of large diaphram condensors towards the stage and then an omni on either side, which would then all be directed to a preamp box and then out to recorder.  Just pondering this and wondering if it could possibly result in a more full sounding recording, the clearness of the condensors mixing with the ambience of the omnis.  All would be configured on a stand of course.  Pros and cons please.

That is all I run.

I usually run 2 Earthworks QTC-1 Omnis spaced 1 metre apart, then run EW SR-77's in an ORTF mode in between them. Works great, but you need a mixer. I've been using the Wendt X4 for the past few years.

Wayne

[Evil Taper]

so a mixer is a must?

i don't have a SMALL mixer, but I do have a decent 5 channel that is portable and runs on standard voltage.  And i'm just saying a kick mic aranged with the other mics for the low frequency clarity mics usually are lacking, but i've never heard of anyone doing this so i doubt it's a practical option.

[wbrisette]

so a mixer is a must?

i don't have a SMALL mixer, but I do have a decent 5 channel that is portable and runs on standard voltage.  And i'm just saying a kick mic aranged with the other mics for the low frequency clarity mics usually are lacking, but i've never heard of anyone doing this so i doubt it's a practical option.

A mixer, in my opinion is the only way to do it. You need to look at ENG mixers, these are designed for this task. See Glenn Trew's article on Eng mixers. It's several years old, and a bit out of date, but still informative.

http://www.trewaudio.com/sound_on_location1.htm

You want low clarity? Use a good quality omni microphone. You'll get a nice flat frequency response with a range that will knock your socks off. How about 4 Hz to 40 KHz +/- 1 dB? Low enough for you? That's what the Earthworks QTC-1 is rated (and does). You need to go check out a couple of my shows on archive.org where I used multiple mics with a mixer. Then you'll get an appreciation for the range of the music and how when done correctly, can sound great. A few recommendations would be:

Big Head Todd & The Monsters: http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=3481
Cowboy Junkies: http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=19889
Sound Tribe Sector 9: http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=17978

All were done with 4 mics (2 QTC-1 mics spread 1 metre with 2 SR-77 mics in the middle) feed into a Wendt X4 mixer. The stereo feed out of the mixer was then put into the AD2K+, then to my DAT recorder. Check out a song or two, then decide for yourself if it's worth all the effort (I think it is).


Wayne

[jacallery]

Wayne, how do you get the metre spread between omni's?    Is it a DIY bar
or two stands?  I plan on doing this some myself, but need a way to split the
omni's with full bodies?

later,
callery

[Evil Taper]

Ok cool, I'll check into this when I get some more cash burning a hole in my wallet...getting new stealth mics first.  If I really needed I could lug around the mixer I have now and use a surge protector and an extension cord to power the rig since it's just local venues and friends bands mostly.  Was just mainly something I had been pondering for a more realistic sounding small venue show.

[wbrisette]

Wayne, how do you get the metre spread between omni's?    Is it a DIY bar
or two stands?  I plan on doing this some myself, but need a way to split the
omni's with full bodies?

later,
callery

I made a bar that fits with a C-Clamp onto my stand. It makes it a very wide setup and most FOH guys get a kick out of watching me put it up. ;-)

Wayne

[Evil Taper]

I am going to want the cardiod condensors to be quite a bit louder than the omnis right?  I'm looking at MXL 992 series cards which have a response of 20Hz-20Khz, currently running the MXL 990 in a studio environment with great results but they respond from 30Hz-20Khz.  This should be clean bottom end for live recording if the mic lives up to it's numbers.  The omnis will be DPA 4061 series.  The signal chain will hopefully look like this:

Mics>Mixer>Tube processor>JB3

I know there's no A>D involved but IMO that's something which I just don't need to include since I am converting to a purely analog sound with the tube system anyway.  My only concern here is that I may possibly pick up more bottom end then I'd like so is it a good idea to lower the bass levels on the mixer a tad while recording?  Also the mic setup will be as follows:

4061***992********************992***4061

Is it just me or is this an almost laughable level of professionalism going into indie rock recordings?  Heh.  Well anyways, more suggestions I'm glad to hear them.

[Brian Skalinder]

I know there's no A>D involved but IMO that's something which I just don't need to include since I am converting to a purely analog sound with the tube system anyway.

Well, there is an ADC involved - it's just the internal one in the JB3.  Keep in mind the quality of the ADC impacts how realistically and detailed your purely analog tube sound is converted to digital.  Personally, I recommend trying it out as you have it spec'd.  If you feel the need for an outboard ADC, you can always add it later. 

[Evil Taper]

Will it make a differance if the signal is tubed before or after it reaches the mixer?  I could lug around a larger unit so both condensors would be tubed, but any units with more than 2 channels cost far too much for my budget.  Also what about an Aphex Aural Exciter to add even more to the recordings before they reach the recorder?  With the kind of access I have at these local venues I can bring as much stuff as I care too really, so this is becoming more insane than I had expected.  What will most likely happen is that I just buy a rack and load it up with different processors and what not to get the best possible recordings done.  Why not make a portable studio...can use it at home too.  Ask me this is a great investment.

[Brian Skalinder]

Also what about an Aphex Aural Exciter to add even more to the recordings before they reach the recorder?  With the kind of access I have at these local venues I can bring as much stuff as I care too really, so this is becoming more insane than I had expected.

Personally, I'd first run:

Mics > Mixer / gain > JB3

This will give you a baseline of how your mics / mixer / gain / JB3 sound.  You may love the setup as is!!  I'd then identify what qualities I like and don't like in the recording and modify my gear accordingly to refine the sound closer to what I really want - whether that means adding tube processing, including an Aphex Aural Exciter, changing mics / different pre, introducing an external ADC, etc.  Tough to tell, IMO, whether you'll even want the tube processor, or AAE, or anything else until you give it a go.

[Evil Taper]

Good point.  I'll test a few different configs and see how it sounds.  I'll be recording hardcore punk and experimental bands mostly with this setup so we'll see what properties add to the recordings.

[nic]

1 of my favorite tapes I've made was with 4 mics:

4mic mix, 10' DFC from stage: AKG 391(ortf) + [MG m200(x/y)> PS2> AD20]> MOTU828> DP3
I slaved the MOTU to external sync to avoid timing/adc issues then mixed everything down in post.

http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=10158

[m.mouse]

A mixer, in my opinion is the only way to do it. You need to look at ENG mixers, these are designed for this task. See Glenn Trew's article on Eng mixers. It's several years old, and a bit out of date, but still informative.

http://www.trewaudio.com/sound_on_location1.htm

You want low clarity? Use a good quality omni microphone. You'll get a nice flat frequency response with a range that will knock your socks off. How about 4 Hz to 40 KHz +/- 1 dB? Low enough for you? That's what the Earthworks QTC-1 is rated (and does). You need to go check out a couple of my shows on archive.org where I used multiple mics with a mixer. Then you'll get an appreciation for the range of the music and how when done correctly, can sound great.

All were done with 4 mics (2 QTC-1 mics spread 1 metre with 2 SR-77 mics in the middle) feed into a Wendt X4 mixer. The stereo feed out of the mixer was then put into the AD2K+, then to my DAT recorder. Check out a song or two, then decide for yourself if it's worth all the effort (I think it is).

Wayne

Wayne,

Four mics? This is something I'd like to experiment with!

But do I really need a full featured mixer? Seems to me if I let the ORTF pair define left and right channels the normal way, then all I'll ever need is to blend in a little left omni into the left channel and correspondingly on the right: a little right side omni into the right side cardioid.  Or will this simple approach yield inferior result?

Mike

[wbrisette]

But do I really need a full featured mixer? Seems to me if I let the ORTF pair define left and right channels the normal way, then all I'll ever need is to blend in a little left omni into the left channel and correspondingly on the right: a little right side omni into the right side cardioid.  Or will this simple approach yield inferior result?

You need to mix somehow. One method is to run two rigs and then in a DAW mix them, or a similar approach is to use a multitrack recorder and mix later. Regardless, somehow you got to get that blend of the omnis into the cards. I just happen to use a mixer on-location (although this now is not something I'm doing with the DEVA IV).

The joy of recording is experimentation. One of the things I hate about most tapers is they are afraid of taking chances with their recording methods. I hear way too often somebody say something like "So, and So told me to do X, and he gets some kick-ass tapes"... There are guidelines out there sure, but don't be afraid to loose a show or two by playing around. It's all part of the process in my mind. Too much technique and not enough experimenting, it's from experimenting that you learn the best methods and usually you discover along the way, why something does or doesn't work.

Wayne

[Evil Taper]

Behringer makes mixers that you can purchase for very cheap, there is even one that you can run on batteries for $100.  I have a Behringer mixer that I run for electronic music production and it's extremely transparent and does not color the sound.  I'd possibly recommend getting an external pre-amp though if you're uneasy about using one from a Behringer mixer.  IMO they work great and are a good compact solution to this sort of situation.  The only reason I'm looking into other options is because I want a warmer sound than digital recording produces, but for straight digital recording one of these mixers will get the job done.

[m.mouse]

Behringer makes mixers that you can purchase for very cheap, there is even one that you can run on batteries for $100.  I have a Behringer mixer that I run for electronic music production and it's extremely transparent and does not color the sound.  I'd possibly recommend getting an external pre-amp though if you're uneasy about using one from a Behringer mixer.  IMO they work great and are a good compact solution to this sort of situation.  The only reason I'm looking into other options is because I want a warmer sound than digital recording produces, but for straight digital recording one of these mixers will get the job done.

I agree that with four mics it's nice to have the full capability of a regular four channel mixer. But my application would based on a pair of directional mics for two-channel stereo, just as I do today. This pair would contribute the majority of the sound and do so without any hole-in-the middle effect.

Then in addition I'd blend in a little full range ambience from the left and right omnis. I may be hugely mistaken but I would have suspected that the optimal mixer setting would be so as to blend in a little left omni into the left cardioid and a little right omni into the right cardioid. If that is correct then it's my understanding that the mixer I need would fit inside a matchbox.