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Author Topic: HI-MD Recorders  (Read 7004 times)

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Offline Joshua Boyens

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HI-MD Recorders
« on: August 02, 2005, 09:41:28 PM »
Hello everyone, this is my first post here.  Great site! Tons of info.  Im posting because I couldn't find any very specific info on MD recorders.  I know lots of people are going to say don’t bother, get a JB3, but I want something smaller (as Im going for a stealth set up).  So my biggest question is, what would be the best HI-MD recorder to get?  Is Sony the best, or are there any other brands that perform as well/better?  Im fairly sure im going to get some of the more expensive sound professional mics, so would this influence my choice in any way? (I do plan on getting a batt box because I plan on recording very loud shows)  Any advice would be much appreciated.  Thanks a lot, Josh.

Offline Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2005, 09:57:27 PM »
I just had to use my old MD for a show last week. Changing discs is a pain in the ass. If your going to stealth, having to change discs sometime can be difficult. The next night I went back to the JB3 and it was really nice to be able to hit record in the bathroom and not have to worry about starting it or changing discs.

I agree that the size of the JB3 is a tad too much. That is why I'm planning on (hopefully) getting one of the M-Audio MicroTrack.

There are a few threads about the MicroTracker. I think you will like it. No moving parts (so it won't overheat if you have hidden). Also it records 24bit.

http://m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrack2496-main.html

It's selling for less that $400. You will also need to buy a large compact flash card (a 2GB card is around $125).

I'm hoping to get some DPA 4061s and the MicroTrack. Should be a nice stealth setup.

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Offline tonyvt

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2005, 01:32:52 PM »
I'm a Bluegrasshole.

Offline George

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2005, 08:32:51 PM »
I just had to use my old MD for a show last week. Changing discs is a pain in the ass. If your going to stealth, having to change discs sometime can be difficult. The next night I went back to the JB3 and it was really nice to be able to hit record in the bathroom and not have to worry about starting it or changing discs.

I agree that the size of the JB3 is a tad too much. That is why I'm planning on (hopefully) getting one of the M-Audio MicroTrack.

There are a few threads about the MicroTracker. I think you will like it. No moving parts (so it won't overheat if you have hidden). Also it records 24bit.

http://m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrack2496-main.html

It's selling for less that $400. You will also need to buy a large compact flash card (a 2GB card is around $125).

I'm hoping to get some DPA 4061s and the MicroTrack. Should be a nice stealth setup.

MIKE B

wow, that's freaking sweet...too bad the battery life is only 3 hrs when recording with phantpm power.  Still, it's nice. 
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Offline dunebug81

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2005, 03:28:20 AM »
Ive got the MZ-RH10 and I LOVE it!  Its got a nice bright OLED display and a ton of recording functions.  Looking at the new player I dont see any difference in it between it and the one I have except for the model number and price tag are different.  Ive taped about 20 or so shows with the HIMD > DPAs and its a pretty tight little rig.  My only gripe is that there isnt anywhere local that stocks the 1GB HIMD discs..however they are easy enough to order online or special order at Best Buy.
Greg
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Offline corsair

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2005, 05:06:44 AM »
There's still the dreaded tape flip to contend with though...  ;D
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Offline dunebug81

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2005, 08:03:53 AM »
Recording with an 80 min disc on HISP will last 2h30m or so and recording in PCM with a 1gb disc will last 95 min.  And so 9 time out of 10 there isnt a tape flip to worry about.  Hell if you're really concerened record in HISP with a 1GB disc and it will go for 8 hours!
Greg
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Offline bluesbrooks

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2005, 03:59:36 PM »
But what kind of format is HiSp is it a lossless format. I have been looking at digital recorders for a little while now. I love the JB3 but I am not sure if I can trust buying it and not having a battery to use in a little while because it looks like theyve been completely disconitinued. Also the JB3 is in such high demand its hard to find one at a great price. Other than the M Audio is there any other alternative thats not very expensive and is small like a JB3 or Md recorder. Another thing is if not and I am just recording a couple shows will an MD recorder give good enough sound. I am new to portable recording equipment so I am unsure about it.
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Offline dunebug81

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2005, 04:46:20 PM »
PCM is lossless; HISP is (i think) 256k ATRAC3+ which, from what i hear, is better then a 320k MP3; and LOSP is something like 64k ATRAC3+ which Ive never heard or used but others have said its pretty much only good for lectures.

Ive recorded in both PCM and HISP and I cant say that I hear a real difference.  Having not not recorded the same band once in HISP and again in PCM I cant really say what the difference is or isnt.  I do notice a difference between the ATRAC3+ (HISP) and the ATRAC-R (latest model non HIMD) and ATRAC3+ is much better.

www.enemyzero.com/greg/tunes/ ive got some MP3s up on my site from various shows Ive taped.  Robert Plant, Seven Mary Three (Soundboard), White Stripes,  and Tom Petty were all recorded in PCM w/DPA 4060s at out door venues.  Collective Sou (indoor)l, Sivertide (indoor), Kid Rock (outdoor), and  Def Leppard (out door) were done in HISP w/DPA 4060s.  Cheap Trick is with my old MD recorder (Sharp MT90 SP mode w/CSB mics).   

If you like the HIMD im going to sell mine for the new M100 so I can have mac support and finally ditch my HP laptop and move over to a Powerbook.
Greg
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Offline Grand-Master-Steve

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2005, 01:58:57 PM »
If interested in MD players go here:

www.minidisc.org

There is 90% of the info you will need. Go to the equiptment browser section.

Offline flintstone

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2005, 03:30:47 PM »
Rob Danielson is a professor in the film department at
University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee.  Rob needs high quality,
audio recording equipment for student projects, and the
gear has to fit under a limited University budget. 

Recently, Rob has found that if you use a $60 Rolls pre-amp
to power the microphone, you get markedly better
recordings with the Sony Hi-MD machine.  The Rolls
pre-amp is not much bigger than a Hi-MD recorder,
and runs on 9 volt battery.  It's an inexpensive setup
that yields good quality results.

Contact Rob by email at "type at uwm dot edu"

Flintstone


Offline noam

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2005, 08:30:42 PM »
Recently, Rob has found that if you use a $60 Rolls pre-amp
to power the microphone, you get markedly better
recordings with the Sony Hi-MD machine.  The Rolls
pre-amp is not much bigger than a Hi-MD recorder,
and runs on 9 volt battery.  It's an inexpensive setup
that yields good quality results.
Flintstone

 I cannot find the rolls 9v mic preamp on the rolls website. Do you have a link? I don't understand what should be Rob's e-mail - can you e-mail me privately? Thanks, Noam

Offline flintstone

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2005, 01:42:01 AM »
My mistake -- the product is the Rolls PB224 dual 48v phantom power supply,
not a preamp. And it costs about $75, not $60...
see  http://www.rolls.com/new/pb224.html

The PB224 uses two 9v batteries.  Mic output is fed through the PB224 into
the minidisc's 3.5mm TRS mic input.  The Hi-MD's mic pre is quieter than most
people expect.  Using an external 48v power source enables the use of
better quality mics, and keeps the minidisc machine from expending energy
providing plug-in power.

About Rob's address:  read it out loud.

Flintstone

Offline whssy

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2005, 12:50:21 PM »
I was forced to go Hi-MD when my D7 packed up 3 days before a gig I wanted to tape.
Soundwise - as good as the DAT
Unload time - a big minus
Level setting - a big minus. This is very fiddly.
Media length - 94 mins should be OK for most performances- my DAT didn't much like anything over 90 mins anyway, but it could usually deal with a 120.
Size - much easier to stealth than DAT
Uploading to PC - much easier
Battery economy - lots better than DAT

I still prefer DAT, but I suspect I may not be going down that path very often, unless I know it is likely to be a long gig (if I ever get the D7 running again).


Offline zride96

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2005, 01:18:10 AM »
I've used a Sony Hi-MD MZ-NH1 for about the last 8 months for getting into stealth taping, used old school Sharp MD before that, and have created some nice recordings with it and have always been able to get it into any venue even with a pat down. It has the nicest remote I have seen for recording, backlit w/full levels control and level meter. So the MD is stashed in a pocket and the remote is clipped somewhere that you can check levels easily. The sound quality is quite good. Battery life is outstanding and I've never had an issue with it not lasting through any shows I've been to.
 
Now the ugly part:

The USB upload works well for the most part, close to real time to transfer, but true digital upload at least. I've run into 2 discs that for some reason the recorder dropped audio while recording, 1 or 2 second losses, and then when you try to upload it fails because Sonic Stage thinks it's already been uploaded. Got around that by using Total Recorder with the MD connected via USB and playing through Sonic Stage. Still had the audio gaps though. And never know when or why it will pop-up again. Sony claims they have no clue.

You also only get to use the USB upload once, then the disc is tagged as uploaded and you cannot re-upload the disc. Using Total Recorder in the same manner as above is the workaround if need be.
 
Yes Sonic Stage software is a major PAIN IN THE ASS!! I have had an issue with digital rights management and not being able to access my own recordings. I built a new computer and "assumed" I could just transfer the .oma files into the new machine and all would be well...hahahahah was I surprised when I got the new 'puter built and I now could not acces any of my own recordings. YIKES!! So after doing some research I found I had to rebuild the old machine (install previous hard drive) and go through Sonic Stage's backup process to be able to transfer my .oma files and DRM to the new machine. A ROYAL PAIN IN THE ASS!! Took many days to figure out the whole process and get it resolved.
Newest version of Sonic Stage will automatically convert .oma files to PCM after they've been uploaded. I always do that now to save the headache of the .oma DRM issue.

Also with MD if there is any disruption to power while recording you will loose your entire recording as it has to write the table of contents to the disk. Pretty easy to do with the battery door being very close to the eject slider. Battery door doesn't lock. Ruined one recording that way. Total bummer!

If you like PCM recording then odds are you'll be flipping a disk at some point during the show. Most of the time there is an encore break before your 94 minutes are up and that's your chance but other shows that run longer will be more stressfull. One solution is HiSP w/MD or HiMD and you get 2 hours 20 minutes w/std MD or close to 8 hours w/Hi-MD running HiSP record mode and I cannot tell a distinct difference between the two and it's much less stressful to not have to worry about the disc flip. I have missed a few flips and have been quite stressed trying to get the disc to finish writing and get reloaded in time to not miss anything. Takes about a minute but always seems like a lifetime. And in the dark it can be easy to have the disk upside down or sideways. Also missed the end of a show cause it ran a minute longer than the disc and trying to change discs would have been useless.

Also about manually setting record levels. It's a bit of task. It takes a series or steps to get there and you always have to reset those settings after shutting down or swapping discs. Have had a few instances where I forgot to reset and didn't wanna pause during the recording to manually set levels, luckily the results were acceptable but there are going to be some fluctuations of sound and possibly some clipping when it gets loud quick, then volume will drop.

It's a really nice unit when all works well, it's ultra small and can record in high quality PCM mode but it is far from perfect.
I got a refurbished Nomad JB3 since that seems to be the standard around here and I really like the "set it and forget it" option of 3 hours of PCM recording and very fast firewire transfer, no DRM and no Sonic Stage headaches. I've crotched it once for a pat down and made it through but it's not the easiest to stealth with and the level meters can be a bit deceiving. Once you get used to it you may not wanna use the Hi-MD again except for the ultra stealth shows. Also no more $5 discs. That got expensive.

So I feel as if I've had all the bumps and bruises of Hi-MD and appreciate it for what it is but I'm not in love with it. I know Sony could make it a better format by increasing disc capacity, say to 2GBs, allowing easier audio level control and doing away with digital rights management but it's not in Sony's best interest I suppose.

I'm still keeping the Hi-MD around to be able to playback all of my recorded shows and for times when I really want a small recorder for stealthing. It's a very convenient package. If you bundle it with small mics w/batt box and recorder you should be able to get some pretty high quality results and then graduate to something better in quality later on as you get more familiar with the taping scene and the various hardware. So far there is not perfect solution.

I started with Giant Squid Omni Mics w/Bass Rolloff Batt. Box and Sharp MD, then graduated to Sony Hi-MD, then upgraded to Core Sound Omnis w/Sound Pros tiny batt box and now using DPA4060/CSHEB and JB3 or Sony Hi-MD. It's a real fun upgrade path that is far from over. Now I'm in search of some high quality cardioid and pre-amp/a-d solutions.

Love my DPAs and the omni sound quality but hate the distant sound if not close, bass heavy at times and also all the chatter around me being picked up.

I still have much to learn. Hope this was helpful.

Good Luck and Happy Taping,

Jeff

Offline noam

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2005, 02:20:25 AM »
You also only get to use the USB upload once, then the disc is tagged as uploaded and you cannot re-upload the disc. Using Total Recorder in the same manner as above is the workaround if need be.

NOT ANYMORE. THE LATEST VERSION OF SS (3.2) LETS YOU UPLOAD UNLIMITED # OF TIMES.
Newest version of Sonic Stage will automatically convert .oma files to PCM after they've been uploaded. I always do that now to save the headache of the .oma DRM issue..
CURRESNT SS 3.1 AND 3.2 CONVERT AUTOMATICALLY TO PCM.

ALSO, SLOWEST UPLOAD TIME IS 2:1.
One solution is HiSP w/MD or HiMD and you get 2 hours 20 minutes w/std MD or close to 8 hours w/Hi-MD running HiSP record mode and I cannot tell a distinct difference between the two and it's much less stressful to not have to worry about the disc flip..
INDEED, I CANNOT TELL THE DIFFERENCE EITHER.

I GO LINE IN WITH BATTERY BOX - NEVER CLIPS.

SS 3.1 & 3.2 SOLVED THE BUGS OF EARLIER VERSIONS. I HAVE BEEN USING THE MZ-RH10 SINCE IT CAME OUT - IT'S A TREASURE. THE PRE-AMP IS VERY QUIET. TONIGHT I LEFT THE AGC ON BY MISTAKE FOR PART OF THE PERFORMANCE AND WAS SURPRISED WITH THE RESULTS - EVEN THE AGC (WHICH I DON'T USE, OF COURSE), IS NOT WHAT YOU'D EXPECT.

NOAM

Offline Rob D

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Re: HI-MD Recorders- Mic Pre Low Noise Performance
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2005, 02:47:18 AM »
Hi--
Seems the noise performance of the HiMD's internal mic preamp is remarkaby good. Here's a quicktime movie test comparing a pair of 6dB(A) self noise Rode NT1As mics first into a Sound Devices 722 recorder and then through Rolls PB224 Phantom Power Supply-> Sony NH900 HiMD mic input. 

http://www.uwm.edu/~type/Mic%20Preamps/RollsPB224-%3eHiMDMicPreAIF.mov

Reports indicate that all of the HiMD recorders made thus far by Sony offer this  performance, Those who record in quiet locations will appreciate its gain of nearly 75dB. The Art Phantom II Portable Phantom Power Supply also seems to be compatible with the HiMD mic pre, but not all phantom units we tested are.

A 2 XLR3F -> 3.5mm stereo miniplug adapter cable  is needed to get from the phantom xlr outputs to the MiMD mic in. The Rolls is about $70 and operates on 2- 9 volt batteries. Folks in Europe can find the Art in the UK but the Rolls is hard to find outside of the US. I would apprecate hearing from people with accounts good or bad. Rob Danielson 




Rob Danielson is a professor in the film department at
University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee.  Rob needs high quality,
audio recording equipment for student projects, and the
gear has to fit under a limited University budget. 

Recently, Rob has found that if you use a $60 Rolls pre-amp
to power the microphone, you get markedly better
recordings with the Sony Hi-MD machine.  The Rolls
pre-amp is not much bigger than a Hi-MD recorder,
and runs on 9 volt battery.  It's an inexpensive setup
that yields good quality results.

Contact Rob by email at "type at uwm dot edu"

Flintstone



Offline itook2much

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2005, 11:34:28 AM »
Quote from: noam
TONIGHT I LEFT THE AGC ON BY MISTAKE FOR PART OF THE PERFORMANCE AND WAS SURPRISED WITH THE RESULTS - EVEN THE AGC (WHICH I DON'T USE, OF COURSE), IS NOT WHAT YOU'D EXPECT.

I'd agree.  Got showered in beer & almost knocked down right at the start of a show, ended up with my Sony MZ-NH1 being off.  The artist was literally walking toward the stage, so I just had to start it.  Recorded with AGC in Hi-SP, came out excellent.  Wouldn't & don't use it otherwise, but nice to know accidently relying on it won't result in a lousy recording.

Nice to know SS now allows repeated uploads.  Haven't needed it yet, but ya never know.  Thanks for the info.
DPA 4060 (CS HEB) > CS BB > Edirol R-09

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Offline madman

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2005, 12:49:34 AM »
I've been taping with MD for a few years and can notice a difference in pre-recorded music quality over CD.   I'd challenge most to notice a difference in Hi-SP vs any uncompressed format in a blind test. 

Offline 612

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2005, 03:35:25 PM »
Sonic Studios DSM-6S/L --> PA-6LC2 --> Sony MZ-NH1 Hi-MD (Line-In)

at 30/30 I'm only getting 4 bars.  :( The batt box I have only takes one AA and I am using Sony rechargables. Someone suggested using an alkaline AA instead of a rechargable to see if that helps. I make sure the batteries (set of two) are charged before a show and I only need one for the batt box and I make sure I'm in the manaual recording setting. I did buy some "Duracell Ultra" AAs that are made to give juice to digital cameras (so are these sony rechargables) thinking they might help but haven't tried them yet since I punked out on going to Sleepytime last night. Any help is appreciated.

John
Empty's Tapes & My recordings on the LMA

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Offline Zaphod

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2005, 03:52:07 PM »
I don't know why that may be unless the SS mics are like CSB's. The CSB's don't work too well line in since they aren't sensitive mics, but they do get better levels whilst ran mic in.

If you don't want to run mic-in on the HiMD, my suggestion would be to get a pre for you SS mics, like and AD20, I ran my old CSB's into for a while with good results.
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Offline madman

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2005, 04:03:18 PM »
I doubt that using a different battery will boost your signal that much since you are using the low sensitivity mics.  I'd use mic-in if that particular MD has one, otherwise you will probably need to get a pre-amp to help your situation.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 04:09:24 PM by madman »

Offline 612

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2005, 07:21:20 PM »
thanks madman.

edit: any cons to using the mic-in on this particular deck with these mics?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 07:28:52 PM by emptyzero »
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Offline madman

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2005, 07:43:36 PM »
Mic-in is going to use the deck's pre-amp, which isn't really that great on most MD decks.  It will work for now, but when you are itching for an upgrade later, you may want to look into an external pre-amp so you can run line in.  Sonic studios may sell some, but their webpage is so cluttered I can't tell you for sure  :)

Offline 612

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Re: HI-MD Recorders
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2005, 11:24:18 AM »
ahh yeah, I was aware of Sony MD pre-amps being crap...been trying to avoid it but you are right it would yeild higher levels. so true about the sonics studios website :) thanks again.
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