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Author Topic: The Merits of the 722?  (Read 13884 times)

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stevetoney

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The Merits of the 722?
« on: May 16, 2007, 03:46:05 AM »
I know that the 722 is great gear built in a great package, but I'm curious to hear people's opinions of this piece of equipment.  Specifically, I wonder what is the logic (or maybe the primary reason) used to justify paying over $2300 when there are seemingly comparable high quality options out there for far less cheese. 

Not to answer my own question, but the most obvious answer to me is a very high quality all-in-one box.  But what else?

Offline sygdwm

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2007, 04:44:30 AM »
if you can afford (justify) a 722, then do so. if you cant, get an oade acm671/hp2/r4 or whatever for less $$. to answer your question buy a v2/m148/mp2/psp/aerco or pre of your choice and a stock 671/hp2/r4. it will cost more but substantially less than a 722.
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(P.S.: On a threaded discussion board like this one, there's no need to repeat someone's post when you reply to them; everyone can see all the messages in the thread.)

stevetoney

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2007, 05:36:17 AM »
if you can afford (justify) a 722, then do so. if you cant, get an oade acm671/hp2/r4 or whatever for less $$. to answer your question buy a v2/m148/mp2/psp/aerco or pre of your choice and a stock 671/hp2/r4. it will cost more but substantially less than a 722.

Honestly, I'm not interesting in buying anything.  I was just more curious with what's up with peeps being willing to chuck so much more money for the 722 and what makes the 722 worth it over the far far less expesive all-in-one options that you mention.  Course, the danger is that once I find out, it might climb right to the top of my slut wish list.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 05:37:57 AM by tonedeaf »

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2007, 06:41:49 AM »
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Offline MattD

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2007, 07:06:37 AM »
I know that the 722 is great gear built in a great package, but I'm curious to hear people's opinions of this piece of equipment.  Specifically, I wonder what is the logic (or maybe the primary reason) used to justify paying over $2300 when there are seemingly comparable high quality options out there for far less cheese. 

Not to answer my own question, but the most obvious answer to me is a very high quality all-in-one box.  But what else?

For me it was about a $1k difference between the 722 and my old rig (4021 > ULN-2 > powerbook). That money reduced the weight of my gear bag from 40-45 lbs to about 10-15 lbs. I was able to get rid of the SLA battery and no longer had computer crashes costing me entire shows (even when the 722 crashed on some of the old bad firmware revs, I only ever lost about 30 seconds of music to reboot it). The new rig also gave me the ability to stealth when desired.

For the effective $1k price tag, it was sure worth it to me. The sound quality is as good as the other top portable gear out there, though I preferred the ULN-2's sound to the 722's as an all-in-one box. If someone can figure out how to get the guts of a V2, Mytek, and Microtracker in a single box this size, I might be convinced to switch to something else. Until then, this is more than adequate. The only difficulty is justifying the relatively few shows I now have time for (down to about 20/year).
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Offline ghellquist

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2007, 09:23:20 AM »
I might not be the typical taper doing only open recordings of classical music. This is my second rig, intended to be easy to carry and running on batteries.

I wanted a machine that simply works all the time (ruled out for example the R4 that I tried but had trouble with as it could not switch from internal to external powering without stopping) and decent low-noise preamps with phantom (ruled out almost all of the lowpriced ones).

Compared to the alternatives on the short list, the 722 was a bargain (alternatives where Nagra, Deva  or Cantar).

And it has indeed fulfilled all my requirements.

When the demands are higher I use my larger rig that has both better preamps and better AD, alas at a much higher price, fills the car and requires AC power.

Gunnar

Offline T.J.

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2007, 09:44:35 AM »
the all in one box is really the answer for me. many times when i tape it is 4-5 shows in a row. the last shows i taped were 5 nights of moe. at the highline in NYC. everywhere i went before and after the shows in the city i was lugging my gear. by the last show (or the last day of a festival) 35-40 lbs feels like 100 lbs.

the fact you can buy a couple 7.2v sony style batteries with the 722 and be set for at least 10 hours is another factor. with the V3 > 671 combo i was lugging at times 4-5 walmart style batteries to get the equivalant runtime.

when compared the cost vs. the size vs. the convenience, the 722 won. to be honest with you, when you total up the cost of the V3, 671, batteries, cables, CF cards, portable hard drive vs. the 722 it is about even.

i debated sticking with the 671 as an all-in-one with a possible oade mod done, but the 722 was just too sexy  :P

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2007, 10:07:04 AM »
I was a fairly early adopter of the 722, not the first here for sure, and there were no other options available for an all in one solution.  I was previously hauling 30-40lbs. to a show.  Now I am @ ~5lbs which will get me 12hrs. of nonstop recording, throw in an extra pound and i can get around 30hours.  I had become used to the HD recording since I had a JB3 and wasn't looking forward to using CF cards.  CF is now finally becoming affordable as well.  Really the proof is in the pudding, the 722 is very consistant, idiot proof and rock solid in the most extreme conditions (8hrs in 115 degree heat(direct sunlight), rain, a few spills and kicks), excellect manufacturer and community support.

I think the 7xx recorders are really in a whole different league than the Marantz, tascam and edirol units.  You don't see any shortcommings till you start to compare them to the zaxcom and cantar, devices which are 4x more.

I would consider a modded R4 if the layout was was totally revamped or a modded 4 channel ~671 w/ a new layout and a HD.  These probably will come available shortly after i move up to a 744 in a few years but I will not have any regrets.
MK 4V > KCY 250/5 Ig (KS 10I)  > VST62IUg > 722

Offline flintstone

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2007, 10:10:10 AM »
722 pro
all in one without compromises
good battery solution
hard disc = record for hours, no worries
great preamp, see http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm
medium size, weight
very solid construction
excellent resale value

722 con
high price
hard disc more vulnerable to shock than flash memory
conclusion:  buy Sound Devices 702, save $600

alternatives
Tascam HD-P2 $1000
Marantz PMD671 with Oade ACM mod $1275
Grace is working on a preamp with flash memory

Offline nickgregory

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2007, 10:20:00 AM »
722 con
high price
hard disc more vulnerable to shock than flash memory
conclusion:  buy Sound Devices 702, save $600

I had a 722 out of the gate and had zero issues with the HD in any circumstance, and have not heard of anyone who has had "shock issues" so to call that a con is misleading

Offline mandoman

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2007, 11:26:39 AM »
Grace is working on a preamp with flash memory

Seriously? Where can we get info on that?

Offline Todd R

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2007, 11:36:10 AM »
Grace is working on a preamp with flash memory

Seriously? Where can we get info on that?

The idea of an all-in-one Grace recorder seems to be rumors built upon hope and desire.  I had a conversation with Mike Grace awhile back when I went to pick my V3 up after the polarity reversal fix, and he told me flat out that Grace Designs has no plans or interest in building a field recorder.  Never say never I guess, but I wouldn't be holding my breath.
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Offline leehookem

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2007, 12:03:20 PM »
Grace is working on a preamp with flash memory


no he's not.  don't get your hopes up.
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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2007, 12:04:31 PM »
Grace is working on a preamp with flash memory


no he's not.  don't get your hopes up.

although he'd be alot cooler if he did  ;D

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2007, 12:57:42 PM »
nah, doubt there'll be a recorder from them.

another v3 mod, i think so. 
mics & cameras

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2007, 01:24:37 PM »
Too many to list really. Most I can think of are listed above. Top notch customer support and a rock solid unit all around.

I can walk into a show and be setup and running in 30 seconds and never have to worry about a thing.

I have not had a single issue, I can trust it will do what it is suppost to do.
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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2007, 02:23:48 PM »
Top notch customer support and a rock solid unit all around.


WORD!

But really, the customer support is great.  It is nice to have such a light weight unit to carry around as well.
AKG 480+ (ck61,ck62,ck63) > Oade m148 > SD 722
AKG (ck61,ck62,ck63) > JKLabs ECMS-22 > SD722
Where'd I go, why'd I go, I don't know, musta been zydeco  :spin:
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Offline ts

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2007, 02:55:21 PM »
My bag ways ~5 lbs. with xtra battery and an xtra pair of caps. Plus patchers don't always carry a BNC 8)

Offline jmz93

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2007, 03:56:42 PM »
Someone mentioned stealthing with the 722 ... really? Is this indeed possible? I ouldn't call it pocket-size, from the dimensions I just found online, but maybe my pockets are small. 
I'm used to using the lower cost/smaller consumer devices (Sharp MD, then Microtrack), and I know, they aren't in the same league at all on many fronts.

Another question, would CSB's,HEB 4060's, or other small mic pairs still need their own battery box, o can theSD722 power them properly on it's own? That would really make it a all-in-one solution for me.

Offline gewwang

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2007, 04:22:20 PM »
Stealthing it is not hard if you are in a situation where you can wear a small bag.

I own a 722 because it's the easiest and most reliable way to stealth to 24/96. If there is another 24/96 all-in-one that I missed it's probably because the 722 does the job so well I've just assumed another box can't top it in terms of ease of use.

Presently, I'm unable to boot my 722 up with either of my batteries. I contacted Sound Devices about this sudden inability for the unit to power up and they want me to confirm it by ordering a 3rd battery and seeing if the problem is reproducible. If my new battery is able to power the 722 then I will be concerned about the reliability because the 2 batteries I had been using were relatively new and it would be too much of a coincidence for them both to die on the same day.

Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2007, 04:43:25 PM »
Stealthing it is not hard if you are in a situation where you can wear a small bag.

I own a 722 because it's the easiest and most reliable way to stealth to 24/96. If there is another 24/96 all-in-one that I missed it's probably because the 722 does the job so well I've just assumed another box can't top it in terms of ease of use.


I use the 722 for open taping, no pockets big enough to wear it.  I often run it parallel with the Sonosax MiniR82, which is stealthable (both of these do 24/192 as well, by the way).  You pay a lot to get the reduction in size, but then you also get 8 channels (4 analog).  Very little chatter about it even in the video production Usenet group, but I love it.

Jeff

Offline gewwang

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2007, 05:09:09 PM »
Stealthing it is not hard if you are in a situation where you can wear a small bag.

I own a 722 because it's the easiest and most reliable way to stealth to 24/96. If there is another 24/96 all-in-one that I missed it's probably because the 722 does the job so well I've just assumed another box can't top it in terms of ease of use.


I use the 722 for open taping, no pockets big enough to wear it.  I often run it parallel with the Sonosax MiniR82, which is stealthable (both of these do 24/192 as well, by the way).  You pay a lot to get the reduction in size, but then you also get 8 channels (4 analog).  Very little chatter about it even in the video production Usenet group, but I love it.

Jeff

Yes, I did know about the Sonosax but price was an issue for me. I'm hoping they one day come out with the 2 channel version. It's good to hear the 8 channel is working out for you.

Offline CQBert

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2007, 01:20:16 AM »
I was also in very early on the 722... had 1.01 firmware when it arrived....  I ran it for a year or so and had absolutely no issues other than one overheating problem in 100+ degree stealth at a festival that was corrected by a firmware fix a week or two later.

Since selling that unit I have run the gamut of recording gear and considered many options before ending up where I am now...

When I sold the 722 I had planned to go multi-channel wiht a Foxtex or DEVA... that was not to be as my wife got pregnant and we now have a little goy soon to be 1yr old...

With the multi-channel out I purchased a HD-P2...serial #032 or something very low from Oade and was willing to wait for Mods but I never got comfortable with the unit, the sound was not bad and I understand that now the mods make them sound even better..... for a grand a pretty nice box, just not my favorite.

After that I ran a V3 > Microtracker and while I loved the V3 (previously owned one) the microtracker did not cut it...

Next I was running an un-modded R4 - both with a MP-2 in front and without.... With the MP-2 I really liked it but at that point the R4 was just a bit bucket... without the pre-amp the sound was horrible!!!!  That unit belonging to another memeber here has since been modded by Bussman and I cannot stress enough how much the mod improoved the sound...  +T Bussman

I am now back to Sound Devices - running a 702 and loving it... my u89's are moving to a new home and have been replaced by DPA 4021's... my bag is under 5 pounds and totally mobile so I can have my rig with me when I travel anywhere...

So - IMO - if you have the scratch, the simplicity, consistency and solid preformance of the SD 7xx units is worth the extra sacrifice if you are capable...  In the end, everyone's ears here things a little differently and everyone's budget is not the same...  My reccomendation, try to match your equipment, it sucks to run great mics into a crappy pre-amp, it also sucks to run crappy mics into a great deck...  Match gear, ears, and budget and be happy, experiment, borrow, trade, that is what makes all this fun. 

For what it is worth - If I had my choice, where money was not a real factor and open taping was allowed I would probably go to DPA Large Diaphrams (4) or (6) and a Deva...  The rig would still be portable and yield extrordinary sound...  Reality - I will be thrilled to own a 744T or the new Sonosax SX-R4 in a year or so and possibly a spare set of mics - maybe 4023's to get into multi-channel....

CQBert
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Offline meatling

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2007, 06:58:25 AM »
I wonder what is the logic (or maybe the primary reason) used to justify paying over $2300 when there are seemingly comparable high quality options out there for far less cheese. 

Funny, now that you mention it, I remember when I got my Marantz PMD671.

I was thinking: "Oh my, cheap plastic casing, flimsy parts, this thing looks like they've been cutting corners left and right to keep cost down. Yuck. Why oh why doesn't anyone make a recorder with the build quality of, say, a Nikon F5? I'd even be willing to pay double the price of a PMD671 for that..."

Now that wouldn't be the 722 (apples and oranges due to the built-in harddisk), but it looks like the 702 fits that description pretty well.

m

Offline ts

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2007, 11:24:51 AM »
I've read that metering thing before. I don't get it. I think they are super. Far easier to adjust than any other recorder I've owned. Someone please explain to me the problem with them.

As far as sound quality. I am so happy with the pre in my 722 that I am seriously considering letting my V3 go. The 722 is the BEST all in one box. Sure it's expensive, but you get what you pay for.

I almost bought a Marantz portable cassette recorder a long time ago. Thank God I bought a D5 instead ;)

Offline nickgregory

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2007, 11:51:23 AM »
I have said it before..the bashing on the sound quality of the 722 is overblown and a bit of piling on.  I dont doubt that some folks hear the difference, but I think some of the bashing comes from folks who couldnt tell the difference in a blind comparison.  As for the metering...it is slightly worse than the grace design products, but above or in line with pretty much anything else on the market.  And once you get used to it, it is extremly easy to use.

The bottom line on the 722 imo is it is the only box where you can get to a single unit in the chain and get really great sound.  Add to it the build quality and the fact that it is truly idiot proof and you really get what you pay for.

Offline flintstone

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2007, 12:16:35 PM »
" i wouldnt take the 671 to the...south american rain forests..."

Actually, the 671 works quite well in the dust and dampness of the rainforest.  A Venezuelan ornithologist friend has one, and, apart from the miserably short life of the internal AA batteries, the 671 works just fine in tropical field conditions.

That said, the 671 went on the shelf when my friend got a 722.

Flintstone

Offline nickgregory

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2007, 12:27:09 PM »
metering is a non issue when you have used the recorder in the field.  anyone who has used the 722 for any length of time can get perfect levels...so the meters on the V3 (which are admittedly better) are only an advantage in the short time it takes to get used to the metering on the 722.

as for the sound..the only thing that i have heard better (and yes I have heard dougs mod boxes in some recordings) is adding the v2/v3 pre in front of the 722 and also the mytek boxes.  Nothing else is better than the 722 standalone to my ears (without taking into account the way upper end of stuff, the portable sax, etc.)  And while the addition of a v2/v3 or a mytek would be fantastic, the marginal gain in sound wasnt worth the increased weight in my bag, batteries, cables, and another point of failure. 

This shouldnt surprise anyone though that I like the 722 as a standalone as I loved the MP-2
« Last Edit: May 19, 2007, 12:29:02 PM by nickgregory »

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2007, 01:02:16 PM »
Another perspective.. I find the v3 meters fairly useless compared to the 722.  I mean, it doesn't even have peak hold!

The v3 meters are way too bright in tape from seat situations and cannot be adjusted. I have to tape over all the v3 LEDs to avoid complaints from people sitting around me.  I also tape over all but the last few meter LEDs on the 722 but they just aren't nearly as bright and annoying as the v3 LEDs.

Another big advantage of the 7xx is taking camcorder batteries.  They have been flawless for me.  I hate the  thought of dealing with 8 NIMH AA batteries..  Individual AA cells which must be stored so they don't short, hassles to change, kept at a similar level of charge, etc. External battery packs are a hassle and whenever you run power over a cable you diminish reliability.

Also, the 7xx displays actual battery voltage.  That is a hugely useful feature for me and I wish every recorder had it. At any time I know exactly what my voltage is and by experience I know where it should be and how much general time I have left.

It'd be interesting to hear a standalone acm 671 vs. 722 comp. Though it would have to be loud material because I don't think the ACM has enough gain for quiet material like jazz, folk, classical, etc?

Offline nickgregory

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2007, 01:44:39 PM »
metering is a non issue when you have used the recorder in the field.  anyone who has used the 722 for any length of time can get perfect levels...so the meters on the V3 (which are admittedly better) are only an advantage in the short time it takes to get used to the metering on the 722.
one shouldn't have to "get used to the levels" imo.  either they're adequate or they aren't

well given that definition, the SBM-1 was pretty useless givens its "flawed levels"

to each their own...as I said before the levels thing and sound is overblown, at the end of the day I still prefer the 722 over anything that doesnt involve multiple boxes...but that is just my opinion...

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2007, 04:28:25 PM »
If I velcro my MR1 to the Apogee MMP, its almost like a one box solution, and I really like the preamp section.

Offline gewwang

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2007, 04:43:00 PM »
don't mis-interpret nick.  i think the 722 sounds very good, just not as good as the mod 671.  i think the fact the 7xx boxes sound as good as they do stock is a major accomplishment considering they're made by the same company that sold the mp2.  >:D

It'd be interesting to hear a standalone acm 671 vs. 722 comp.
i'd be willing to offer up my acm 671 to an established member of the community to do the comp.  all i ask in return is payment for the shipping/insurance both ways and agree that they'd pay the repair charges to fix the recorder, if they damaged it in any way.

So if you're offering it up to do a comp, that implies you've never heard a comp which contradicts the statement that the 722 doesn't sound as good as the mod 671.

what i'm referring to is the scale structure and how its geared more towards film work.  having a light at -12 and two between it and 0 are not what i would call adequate metering for our purposes. 

722 meters                                                                                                 


671 meters

the 671 also has a numeric display that shows the highest dB level of the signal.  unfortunately it doesn't do it for each channel.



The 722 metering is just fine. The first led above -12 is red so I start off with the levels peaking around there then turn the levels up til peaks hit the 2nd to final led. If the peak ever hits the final led, I just back the level off a bit and don't touch them again the rest of the set. I can also see the balance really accurately since the levels do update very quickly. Because of the stereo linking feature, it's easy to make subtle balance adjustments using the 2nd level knob to tweak the balance after the linked volume level has been set. Since getting my 722 I've kept both knobs linked and they've been right at about 12 o'clock for every show I've taped (stealth or open and either with the 722 front end or m148>722) other than one show where I had the low cut filter enabled and had the gain bumped up to about 3 o'clock.

Offline MattD

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2007, 05:13:32 PM »
I just don't like having 4 reds because if I'm using peak hold + VU I can't tell which of the 4 reds is lit and if I'm using peak hold only, I can't tell count if I have 2 or 3 reds lit fast enough. Real issue: peak hold needs to be longer and I'd love to swap that board out with green LEDs then yellow for the 3 before clip and then red clip.
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Offline gratefulphish

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2007, 05:27:27 PM »
From the minute that I got my 722, I began to fully appreciate the quality of the unit, and its ability to be an all in one box, even though most of the time, I do run my V3 in front of it.  As far as meters go, I have said before and will say again, give me back my DA-P1 meters and peak level numeric readout.  Best meters ever.  I would almost be willing to canabalize my P1, if I could just have those meters available.  That being said, I have learned to deal with the 722 meters without any issues, with or without the V3.  When I am running the V3, I usually have the 722 set at -5db, and just use the V3 for level setting. But when I run mics>722, I keep the peaks at one below the top LED.  You also have the ability to set the clip level lights at any db setting you want, so you are alerted if you are at -1, -2 or whatever level you set.

All in all, it is built like a tank, it is tiny for all that it does, and with the exception of needing one of the Sony style tumor batteries sticking out the back, it is a dream machine.  I am going to be trying an external battery setup, using the hirose connector, which IMO should be replaced with something that would allow for a lower profile right angle connection.
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Offline gratefulphish

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2007, 05:31:36 PM »
I just don't like having 4 reds because if I'm using peak hold + VU I can't tell which of the 4 reds is lit and if I'm using peak hold only, I can't tell count if I have 2 or 3 reds lit fast enough. Real issue: peak hold needs to be longer and I'd love to swap that board out with green LEDs then yellow for the 3 before clip and then red clip.

I use peak hold and VU, and have no problem telling which red LED is lit. Have you tried adjusting the brightness of the LEDs?  As I understand it, there has been a number of requests to SD for a firmware upgrade that will allow for customized setting of the meters.  That would be wonderful, and if they could put a peak level number in the main screen, I would be in hog heaven.
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Offline MattD

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2007, 05:40:02 PM »
From a distance, or up close? I like to be able to glance and know what's going on without really interrupting my enjoyment of the show. I have the brightness all the way down and it's still too bright for most shows. The only time I've ever turned it up is for an outdoor daytime show. The peak hold is too fast for me. Personally, I liked the ULN-2 meters. Green until -6, orange at -6, -3, -1, red at clip. I could set my levels to just touch the orange and have 6 dB of headroom. Peak hold was about 2-3 seconds, if I recall.

Yeah, I've been requesting custom meter settings/margin readout/etc. for about a year. I'm not holding my breath. I still don't think they fixed the bug I reported about markers not being saved in a file that is autosplit.
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Offline ghellquist

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2007, 06:59:18 PM »
As to meters, it works perfectly well unless you want to squash the sound. Remember, it is not recording to a cassette tape where we need to cram every last bit of resolution out of the equipment not to get the song drenched in noise. Instead we have a genereous noise margin to work with. Part of that margin is best used as a safety net.

I aim for yellow leds and no red leds even at peaks (no need to see if there is one or several reds). This means there is plenty of headroom up to digital stops. Allowing for things getting stronger and still having a lot of distance down to noise floor. It also means that there is no compression going on, the recording is what the mics hear. Now at this level I add the limiter in the 722. It starts kicking in at about -6dB and gives even more of a suspenders safety against by mistake getting the levels totally wrong.

Once home, it is very easy to normalize the level up with a good software (I use Samplitude). It is also easy to do a bit EQ compensating for a bad room, a bit of compression, further volume raise and a final mastering limiter to get the level up to close to commercial CD level. Many a reputable engineer hates the loudness war going on at the commercial side, just about any record sounds squashed out of every nuance, but the choice can be done in postprocessing with access to good listening, not in the heat of the moment. Postprocessing in a good program takes only a few minutes.

Gunnar

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2007, 08:14:41 PM »
As to meters, it works perfectly well unless you want to squash the sound. Remember, it is not recording to a cassette tape where we need to cram every last bit of resolution out of the equipment not to get the song drenched in noise.

*snip*

Many a reputable engineer hates the loudness war going on at the commercial side, just about any record sounds squashed out of every nuance, but the choice can be done in postprocessing with access to good listening, not in the heat of the moment. Postprocessing in a good program takes only a few minutes.

Running hot does nothing to the dynamics so long as you don't use or hit the limiter. I want to maximize my S:N ratio during the recording process. Bringing it up later also brings up the noise floor. However, odds are that unless we're recording a very quiet source, this isn't a problem whichever way you decide to run.
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Offline gratefulphish

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2007, 09:02:19 PM »
As to meters, it works perfectly well unless you want to squash the sound. Remember, it is not recording to a cassette tape where we need to cram every last bit of resolution out of the equipment not to get the song drenched in noise. Instead we have a genereous noise margin to work with. Part of that margin is best used as a safety net.

I aim for yellow leds and no red leds even at peaks (no need to see if there is one or several reds). This means there is plenty of headroom up to digital stops. Allowing for things getting stronger and still having a lot of distance down to noise floor. It also means that there is no compression going on, the recording is what the mics hear. Now at this level I add the limiter in the 722. It starts kicking in at about -6dB and gives even more of a suspenders safety against by mistake getting the levels totally wrong.

Once home, it is very easy to normalize the level up with a good software (I use Samplitude). It is also easy to do a bit EQ compensating for a bad "room, a bit of compression, further volume raise and a final mastering limiter to get the level up to close to commercial CD level. Many a reputable engineer hates the loudness war going on at the commercial side, just about any record sounds squashed out of every nuance, but the choice can be done in postprocessing with access to good listening, not in the heat of the moment. Postprocessing in a good program takes only a few minutes.

Gunnar

I really cannot see why you would want to run that low, even with the additional headroom provided by 24 bit recording.  -6db is one thing, but not hitting the reds, means that you are below -12db.  And why, after that, would you ever use a limiter.  Ever?  I don't care what deck it is, limiters suck.  I also don't quite understand your post processing, you raise the levels, then you compress them, then you raise the levels again, and then you use a "final mastering limiter".  What does this mean?  Sounds like you are completely destroying the true dynamic range.
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2007, 09:19:09 PM »
I really cannot see why you would want to run that low, even with the additional headroom provided by 24 bit recording.  -6db is one thing, but not hitting the reds, means that you are below -12db.

IIRC, Gunnar records unamplified music.  Keep in mind recording real instruments and voices provides -much- broader dynamic range v. recording a PA, and as such it's wise to reserver greater headroom.  In some of the a cappella recording I've done, I've felt safe at -12 dB only to have, for example, a big soprano blast blow through my headroom and clip.
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Offline eric.B

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2007, 09:43:18 PM »
From the minute that I got my 722, I began to fully appreciate the quality of the unit, and its ability to be an all in one box, even though most of the time, I do run my V3 in front of it.  As far as meters go, I have said before and will say again, give me back my DA-P1 meters and peak level numeric readout.  Best meters ever.  I would almost be willing to canabalize my P1, if I could just have those meters available.  That being said, I have learned to deal with the 722 meters without any issues, with or without the V3.  When I am running the V3, I usually have the 722 set at -5db, and just use the V3 for level setting. But when I run mics>722, I keep the peaks at one below the top LED.  You also have the ability to set the clip level lights at any db setting you want, so you are alerted if you are at -1, -2 or whatever level you set.

All in all, it is built like a tank, it is tiny for all that it does, and with the exception of needing one of the Sony style tumor batteries sticking out the back, it is a dream machine.  I am going to be trying an external battery setup, using the hirose connector, which IMO should be replaced with something that would allow for a lower profile right angle connection.

as far as I know..  you got that right!    just for the sheer fact there's a peak level numeric readout thats *allways* shown.   Hell, I wouldn't care really how bad the levels are on a recorder from a graphic standpoint as long as there was that numeric peak number there to show ya just *exactly* where you stand.   On the dap1, when looking down on it after that  precipitously LOUD portion of a show, you just have to smile if there is just a "zero" there looking back at you.  :)     If you see a blinking zero, just cut it back a bit..  easy!    With the v3 actually, I still use the dap1 meters to adjust levels like I did when I ran the v2 line in, especially during my onstage no PA jazz gigs.  But I will admit, I do like the peak overload hold on the v3.. which is the same as the blinking zero on the dap1.

I just don't like having 4 reds because if I'm using peak hold + VU I can't tell which of the 4 reds is lit and if I'm using peak hold only, I can't tell count if I have 2 or 3 reds lit fast enough. Real issue: peak hold needs to be longer and I'd love to swap that board out with green LEDs then yellow for the 3 before clip and then red clip.

^^why the dap1's levels rock!
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Offline nickgregory

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2007, 11:33:37 PM »
So if you're offering it up to do a comp, that implies you've never heard a comp which contradicts the statement that the 722 doesn't sound as good as the mod 671.
afaik an acm 671 / 722 comp has never been done. 

i have a good handle on how my deck sounds with 4022s and gefell mics in front of it and i've also heard quite a few 402x>7xx recordings which is what my opinion is based on.  i realize there are many other variables involved, (venue, location, etc.) and i've never heard a single gefell > 7xx recording; i actually don't think one circulates.  (did sobel do one recently?)  if one does, i'd love to hear it since that was one of the main reasons i went with the oade box in the first place way back when.  i have no problem offering up my deck, my m20/mv200 pair and my belden 1804a interconnects so a proper comp can be done and i can eat my words.  ;D

there are plenty of MG->722 tapes circulating...I did more than a few...some with M148...most without

http://www.archive.org/details/tishamingo2005-09-03.flac16

http://www.archive.org/details/dbt2005-06-28.flac24

http://www.archive.org/details/cl2005-03-01.flac24

http://www.archive.org/details/bhtm2005-03-01.shnf

http://www.archive.org/details/mmj2005-06-07.flac24


Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2007, 10:38:57 AM »
I really cannot see why you would want to run that low, even with the additional headroom provided by 24 bit recording.  -6db is one thing, but not hitting the reds, means that you are below -12db.

Back in the analog days, 0 dB was the equiv of what, -14dBFS?  Or is it -18dBFS?  So there is this notion that some preamp output stages will be overloading if you drive them near 0dBFS.

There is also concern that some input stages don't cope well with signals as hot as 0dbFS. I think a peak at -12 vs. peak at 0 comp would be interesting but it would be entirely rig dependent.

Like many others here, I sometimes record in some impressively quiet venues.  Yet the noise floor of the quietest moments is still way, way above the noise floor of my gear.  So adding 12db in post for a 7xx recording concerns me not in the least, especially on a rock PA show.  As Brian and others have mentioned, sometimes -12 isn't nearly enough reserve and a singer, trumpet, drum can blow it right out.  I swear Wynton was toying with me when he walked up to the stage lip at a show a while back with a 'I'm going to blow out your levels' gleam in his eye..

I don't agree with the general concern that raising in post raises the noise floor bcause it also raises the peaks. Adding more gain on the pre.... are you ready for this....  raises the noise floor.. :P

I don't use the limiter on the 7xx.  I also don't do EQ, compression, etc, in post unless the recording is really lacking.  A sustained note from a horn or violin sounds butchered to me when compressed.  I don't doubt that many of my recordings could be *generally* improved by more post but I also think I could find specific flaws introduced as a result of the post and those flaws would bug me. I want to stay as close to the original bits from the a/d as possible, partially on principle.  That many of my recordings cannot be played back on car stereos, etc, doesn't really bug me.

Good thread, even though it started by someone not even contemplating a 7xx.. as if we need more fluffing..

Offline ghellquist

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2007, 02:08:37 PM »
A bit of explaining might be needed as per my previous post.

-12dBFS means that we are two bits down from top as one bit is about 6dB. We still have about 18 left in the AD. Good AD converters today gives about 20bits S/N regardless of the claim for 24 bit fame. Compare to a CD that is max 16 bits, and we still have quite a lot to work with. If you run a digital recorder very close to 0dBFS you are letting the electronics work as a limiter, there are always short strong sounds, transients. Some of the boxes are made to sound good "overdriven", some not, but it is definitely not a true representation of the recorded signal anymore. My guess is that the V3 mentioned is made to sound good in "overdrive" distorting in a pleasant way. The 722 circuits are not, they distort ugly (according to my ears). With the 722 limiter in circuit the "distortion" is again nice to hear, it starts at -6dB though so still a good idea to be a bit lower.

In post I might do the following. Remember I do acoustic music, open recordings, on request by the choir or orchestra. In "industry" terms it is more like what a mastering engineer would do (and I am really a beginner at this).

1 - normalize, just beeing lazy and to get things up to a known level. (I use Samplitude and the normalize is done virtually, no files are written, just parameters set).
2 - high-pass, removing everything below, say, 30 Hz. Only subways and buses down there anyway. Depending on the source, sometimes as high as 150 Hertz (girls choir). If I use cardioid mics these start falling of at something like 100-150 Hz anyway when used at a distance, one of my omni pairs goes down to 10Hz (or even a bit lower).
3 - if it improves things, very careful EQ, maybe 2 or 3 db down on offending room modes. Some rooms sound very "boxy" and a little eq can improve things quite a lot without beeing heard. Disturbing though if it is not EQ-d off.
4 - sometimes, a very slight compression. Often a factor of 1.1 or 1.2 (that is just a slight, slight touch). The idea is to "sweeten" things just a tiny bit, not changing the character, just making it easier to listen to. Not every source is improved by this though.
5 - adjust volumes of all songs to get good sequencing between them. Typically a request in order for the record to be playable at all in a car -- the client is always right.
6 - and finally, often a limiter set at -3dB. The volumes before this should be set so that it will only do anything in a small parts in a few of the songs. It could be a single drum hit or a single very percussive note somewhere. The effect is not to be heard, but a listener is often disturbed by the recording if the transients are left in. The exact value is depending on several things, but -3dB seems right most of the time. Mp3 coders as example struggle to get up to the last dB-s and may sound much better with a little headroom left. Some CD-players also struggle at the very top, best to leave them the room.

Sometimes i do a bit of noise removal, audience coughs, things dropped, perhaps a screaming baby. All to get it down to a level where it does not remove focus from the music performed. Another thing is on amateur choirs the sopranos can be a bit strong on resonance tones. A tad of multiband compressor can be used, all bands except the "soprano band" set to no compression. Has to be done with taste.

Sorry, a bit of rambling in a thread really about other things.

Gunnar

Offline gratefulphish

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2007, 02:45:40 PM »
I apologize for some of my comments, as I was not aware of the type of music that you record, and I agree that there are a lot more challenges, and potential dynamic range changes in taping acoustic music of that type.  I was wondering why you normalize first and then run a low pass filter.  I frequently have to run a low pass, and also normalize, but I do it in reverse order.  I find, at least in the rock realm, that a lot of the peaks are bass notes, and bass drum, and eq'ing that first, brings about a more balanced sound after normalization. I think I will try a quick comp or two with the same clip, doing it one way and then the other, to see what the difference is.
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Offline ghellquist

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2007, 03:20:43 PM »
No need to apologize, I read it as an honest question out of surprise.

We all do things differently, partly because of the source, partly because of how our tools work, partly because of what ideals we are aiming for. And as better people than me has said, "if it works, it works".

Gunnar

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2007, 02:26:06 AM »
Good thread, even though it started by someone not even contemplating a 7xx.. as if we need more fluffing..

 ^-^ Wow.  Wierd statement for a good thread  :o  

I started the thread and have read every post...thanks to everyone that's responded as I've learned  alot.  I guess it's fluffing to you, but it's education to those of us that have never seen a 722 in action.  I'm sure you were, at one point in time, on the front edge of your knowledge spectrum too.    :-\
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 02:32:39 AM by tonedeaf »

sml42

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Re: The Merits of the 722?
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2007, 03:58:26 PM »
I often run it parallel with the Sonosax MiniR82

Now that's an interesting recorder... why have I not seen this before?!

 :hmmm: I shall have to investigate...

 

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