Topic: Edirol/Roland R-09HR Tech Review Posted

[guysonic]

Just posted the preliminary technical review of this great deck at: www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm

For starters, the HR's MIC input is at least 10 dB quieter than R-09 version as graph shows below.



And great news is the input jacks are solid through-hole soldered so no more break-away jacks!  See photos below and discussion of this and more inside the review.

[Dede2002]

+T. Thanks for one more great review 

[illconditioned]

Wow.  Thanks for all the technical details.

Any explanation for the multiples of 1kHz on the mic inputs?  Both the R09 and the HR???  I haven't noticed this, but others have reported it.  Seems suspicious to me.  Why can't manufacturers get this right  .

 Richard

[flintstone]

Many thanks.  This and the LS-10 review posted in two days -- It must be
raining in Oregon! 

What's with the 6dB to 10dB spikes in self-noise every 1000 Hz above 8000 Hz? 
Some sort of digital signal processing issue?  It looks like the R-09 had similar
spikes, but not as great an amplitude.

One correction -- in the blue box at the bottom of the review where you talk
about which memory cards to use, the text reads, "External LS-10 SDHC memory..."
Must be a cut-and-paste error.

Flintstone

[digifish_music]

Just posted the preliminary technical review of this great deck at: www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm

For starters, the HR's MIC input is at least 10 dB quieter than R-09 version as graph shows below.

Nice, thanks for that. BTW: I noticed in my own test the noise floor for 96 kHz was significantly worse than 44.1 kHz, did you see the same thing?

digifish

[Dede2002]

Just posted the preliminary technical review of this great deck at: www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm

For starters, the HR's MIC input is at least 10 dB quieter than R-09 version as graph shows below.

Nice, thanks for that. BTW: I noticed in my own test the noise floor for 96 kHz was significantly worse than 44.1 kHz, did you see the same thing?

digifish

Really?

[digifish_music]

Just posted the preliminary technical review of this great deck at: www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm

For starters, the HR's MIC input is at least 10 dB quieter than R-09 version as graph shows below.

Nice, thanks for that. BTW: I noticed in my own test the noise floor for 96 kHz was significantly worse than 44.1 kHz, did you see the same thing?

digifish

Really?

Yes, but it seemed odd to me (and it's easy to make mistakes)...so I was interested to see confirmation, just as the spikes I showed have been independently confirmed.

digifish

[guysonic]

Just posted the preliminary technical review of this great deck at: www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm

For starters, the HR's MIC input is at least 10 dB quieter than R-09 version as graph shows below.

Nice, thanks for that. BTW: I noticed in my own test the noise floor for 96 kHz was significantly worse than 44.1 kHz, did you see the same thing?

digifish

Also noticed this.  Figure cause is all the highest frequency noise spikes being added when in wider bandwidth 88.2/96k recording modes.

Many thanks.  This and the LS-10 review posted in two days -- It must be
raining in Oregon! 

What's with the 6dB to 10dB spikes in self-noise every 1000 Hz above 8000 Hz? 
Some sort of digital signal processing issue?  It looks like the R-09 had similar
spikes, but not as great an amplitude.

One correction -- in the blue box at the bottom of the review where you talk
about which memory cards to use, the text reads, "External LS-10 SDHC memory..."
Must be a cut-and-paste error.

Flintstone

Noise spikes seem to be analog related noise pollution maybe from the switching power supply or digital flash storage operations.  Using LINE input with an external preamp eliminates recording the audio quality effects of this noise.

Thank you for proof reading to find the paste error.

Wow.  Thanks for all the technical details.

Any explanation for the multiples of 1kHz on the mic inputs?  Both the R09 and the HR???  I haven't noticed this, but others have reported it.  Seems suspicious to me.  Why can't manufacturers get this right  .

 Richard

Sony is one manufacturer with both the experience and motivation to go the extra mile eliminating this type of noise in final production/shipped decks.

While the noise is at a fairly low level, and mainly at high enough frequencies so not to be audible, it can audibly affect certain audio sound aspects when mixed-recorded into (harmonically rich) acoustic music and other critical natural sounds.   

Eliminating this type of noise takes post design engineering proto-production efforts as its being caused (most times) by PCB circuit trace routing/shielding usually needing a refined redesign of some very critical analog circuit board ground paths, and sometimes insufficient power supply capacitor decoupling of low level mic amplifier first stages.   

If proto-production engineering misses seeing this issue, or if engineering decides it's not worth the trouble to fix, OR if proto-production evaluation is completely missing in a rush to get main production in full swing, these noise issues get passed on to the buyer to solve or live with.

In this case the noise is not terrible, and unlike some other decks with same type issues, can be completely eliminated using the LINE input with a quality low impedance output preamplifier.

[digifish_music]

Noise spikes seem to be analog related noise pollution maybe from the switching power supply or digital flash storage operations.  Using LINE input with an external preamp eliminates recording the audio quality effects of this noise.

I am really surprised that they line up exactly with the 1000 Hz frequency divisions (but as I now see it is present in the R09 original too). I have asked R&D Japan about this, so waiting for a response. Surely you would expect design noise to be harmonically related to the circuitry and clock frequencies?

Edit: Just a note about your excellent review, you mention the non-slip coating in the same breath as handling noise reduction, while it is definitely nicer to feel - when recording on the internal mics, you still cant slide/move your grip or manipulated any buttons without it being picked up and recorded. For me one of the main mechanical-noise differences is the new unit does not creak or crack when squeezed and the new coating makes losing your grip less likely.

digifish

[Dede2002]

Noise spikes seem to be analog related noise pollution maybe from the switching power supply or digital flash storage operations.  Using LINE input with an external preamp eliminates recording the audio quality effects of this noise.

I am really surprised that they line up exactly with the 1000 Hz frequency divisions (but as I now see it is present in the R09 original too). I have asked R&D Japan about this, so waiting for a response. Surely you would expect design noise to be harmonically related to the circuitry and clock frequencies?

Edit: Just a note about your excellent review, you mention the non-slip coating in the same breath as handling noise reduction, while it is definitely nicer to feel - when recording on the internal mics, you still cant slide/move your grip or manipulated any buttons without it being picked up and recorded. For me one of the main mechanical-noise differences is the new unit does not creak or crack when squeezed and the new coating makes losing your grip less likely.

digifish

My R9HR feels quite solid, but the Power switch rattles.

[bgalizio]

Thanks for the review! Any chance of determining the true "unity gain" for line-in?

[midden]

I read your reviews of both the Olympus LS-10 and the Edirol R-09HR and decided to settle on the Edirol R-09HR. I plan on recording mostly very heavy metal, i.e. death metal. I'm curious about your opinion on the following: your DSM-6S /EL are the only mics I've seen that specifically mention being tailored to metal, thus piquing my interest. However, the cost of them plus the PA-3SX are $1100, adding in the cost of the R-09HR, this is only about $150 less than a Sony PCM-D1. You mention that the PCM-D50 is the only solid state recorder that can power your DSM mics "out of the box", as such even though it is more expensive, the whole package would be less because the PA-3SX would be superfluous. Is this a better setup for the money. Or is just going to straight to the PCM-D1 the way to go if you have this much money to spend? I appreciate your thoughts on this matter, thank you for your time.

[digifish_music]

I read your reviews of both the Olympus LS-10 and the Edirol R-09HR and decided to settle on the Edirol R-09HR. I plan on recording mostly very heavy metal, i.e. death metal. I'm curious about your opinion on the following: your DSM-6S /EL are the only mics I've seen that specifically mention being tailored to metal, thus piquing my interest. However, the cost of them plus the PA-3SX are $1100, adding in the cost of the R-09HR, this is only about $150 less than a Sony PCM-D1. You mention that the PCM-D50 is the only solid state recorder that can power your DSM mics "out of the box", as such even though it is more expensive, the whole package would be less because the PA-3SX would be superfluous. Is this a better setup for the money. Or is just going to straight to the PCM-D1 the way to go if you have this much money to spend? I appreciate your thoughts on this matter, thank you for your time.

Just a question do you need to record stealth or not? If not, $1100 buys you a lot of outboard gear (mic preamp + microphones).

digifish

[gmm6797]

Have we been able to determine, for sure, that any volume setting will work and that a "unity setting" (like with the R-09) is not needed?

[midden]

It definitely has to be stealth. I really just want to know what are the best microphones with which to record bass. I have read quite alot of posts here on this forum and elsewhere and no one really seems to quantitative tests with these stealthy mics, only qualitative, and no one I've seen has recorded anything similar to what I'm going to be using them for. So many people have thrown mics out there and the alphabet soup has made me unsure of whether or not I'm looking at the right microphone. For example, I've seen people talk about HEBs, sometimes with the Core Sounds name thrown in as well, http://www.core-sound.com/bk/1.php, are these them? Church Audio STC-x, Sound Professional SP-BMC-x, Danish Pro Audio DPA-4xxx, Audio Technica mics; Felmicamp 3.5x, PA-3SX pre-amps, nboxs, some of these have identical frequency response and SNR, adding to my frustration to find meaningful differentiation.

I'm not really in the market to spend ~$1500, however I know that quality is remembered long after price is forgotten, I want something that the experts know is damn near the best possible setup for stealth circumstances. So, if that means spending an extra $100, $300, or even $500, then I'll do it because the peace of mind knowing that I'll be able to make high fidelity recordings for several years is also worth something... So, I do already have the Edirol R-09HR, when I bought it I didn't think I would need to spend over a $1000 MORE dollars in order to make it GOOD. I would just like recommendations for the best mic/pre-amp OR just mic OR mic/BB setup for my purposes, i.e. loud metal concerts.