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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: uncledrax on February 07, 2008, 10:18:53 PM
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Hi Guys,
I am going to record a string ensemble for possible future release and i have a few questions. I have at my deposal the following;
2x DPA 4006
1x DPA 4011
1x AKG C414
1x Neumann TLM170
2x Schoeps CMM4
6x Rode NT5
Now the way im thinking of going about this is to use the 4006s in a A-B stereo setup with NT-5s as spot mics for the first and seconds violins and violas. use the TLM170 to spot mic the cellos, the C414 on the double bass and maybe have the schoeps in a ORTF as an alternative stero pair.
The ensemble will consist of 8 violins, 4 violas, 4 cellos and 2 double bass in a semi-circle configuration around the conductor.
What do people think??
Thanks,
Travis
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thanks moke.
thats a sweet setup. if only i could get my hands on a SF12/SF24, i would be in heaven!!!
what Earthworks mic you using?? and what mics for the ambient pair?
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I have attached a picture of the layout. The fronts being a spaced pair of DPA 4006, and the circles being the spot mics i said above. Tell me what you think?
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Personally, I would record with a simple MS set-up, or ORTF cardioids - just two mics.
Adding more mics just adds multi-path proplems.
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uncledrax, I agree strongly with John Willett. Find a good place for a good main pair of microphones, and add spot mikes only where you have specific reason to expect a problem with clarity or balance. Also, consider using a suitable time delay (if available) and high-pass filtering on any spot mikes that you do use.
Spot mikes are at best a necessary evil; they generally create as many problems as they solve; less is more where they're concerned; need I go on?
--best regards
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yes but im trying to work with what i have. I want to use the 4006s if possible as my main pair. Can they be used ORTF?
The reason im using spot mics is if i need more presence out of a particular section. normally i like a touch more viola than is normally recorded by the main pair, for instance.
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yes but im trying to work with what i have. I want to use the 4006s if possible as my main pair. Can they be used ORTF?
No, these are omni mics.
You can use them as spaced omnis or in a Jecklin disk.
However, your Schoeps are cardioids and you can use them ORTF.
The reason im using spot mics is if i need more presence out of a particular section. normally i like a touch more viola than is normally recorded by the main pair, for instance.
But the ensemble should be able to balance themselves.
If the balance is wrong, then either the ensemble cannot balance themselves properly or the microphones are in the wrong place.
Adding more mics causes more problems.
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another vote for the schoeps as a stereo pair, without spots. or grab a j-disc and run the omnis. simple, effective, and beautiful.
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I say sell all the mics (ccms to me), buy lots of booze/drugs/hookers and beat up the double bass player.
thats my vote. i'm stickin' too it.
glad to help.
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I would record 4 tracks for this one as follows:
M/S center pair w/ DPA 4011 + AKG 414 (fig. 8 )
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DPA 4006 as a split omni pair
I agree completely that spot mics in an all acoustic environment tend to add as many issues as the ones they're meant to 'fix.'
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I am with Willets et al: go with to well situated 4006's. I would use Williams "Stereo Zoom" technique to determine the distance between the two mics in an A-B setup. Adding more mics often creates as many problems as it solves. The ensemble will find its own balance, and has in its layout. You just need to find the sweet spot, set the proper "Williams" distance between the 4006's (and choose the proper grids if you have a selection to choose from) and turn on the recorder. I would love to have you post the result here. I am always trying to learn ore and am interested in how you solve the problem and what your results are.
Cheers 8)
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a lot of good advice here.
strings love to be miked by schoeps....especially violins ;D
i'd put a schoeps ortf pair in the middle and flank with the 4006's. that would sound killer!
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I thought the 4011/414 M-S combo was a pretty good thought.
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I thought the 4011/414 M-S combo was a pretty good thought.
Forgot to add: record the tracks separately to mix in post, both m/s decoding and adding the flanking pair in the mix. You may have to flip the phase on one pair before mixng 4 tracks to stereo, and you will definitely want the ability to adjust your soundstage in post while decoding the raw m/s tracks.
I'd put a schoeps ortf pair in the middle and flank with the 4006's. that would sound killer!
While I agree that schoeps sound great with strings, I recommend against a non-coincident center pair if planning to mix 4 tracks to stereo. If you wanna run the schoeps in the center, set 'em up XY. A non-coincident center pair, when mixed with a split pair, tends to make the mixing more difficult and may create both un-necessary phasing issues as well as a sloppy/muddy soundstage in which the stereo image tends to 'wander.'
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thanks for all the pointers.
Moke, i have been looking through your post with all the pictures in it and see that the sf-12 + EW setup is used alot. I have access to a NEUMANN USM 69i, now i know this would not even touch the royer but could i simulate the same effect by using that with the 4006s?? Would i obtain good results with this configuration? I also noticed that the mics are facing straight forward, no downward angle at all. Does this work?
Thanks.
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It seems to me you are just confusing your self big time....just start with the '69,and adjust the angle to the focus of interest.then after some time when you get down to the science of it add more mics.
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You can use a USM 69 as your main stereo pair, and it is definitely capable of M/S pickup. But that is a microphone with a definite "sonic signature"--it doesn't have a smooth, neutral treble range. Thus you might need to keep it back a little farther away from the sound sources than you might initially expect.
Doing that can be very helpful anyway when recording in M/S or Blumlein, since it helps you to fit everyone within the coverage angle of the stereo pair. In M/S recording you must never let the side (S) microphone pick up any source of direct sound more than the center (M) mike is picking it up--the musical balance as picked up by the M microphone alone needs to be complete.
--best regards
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ain't that the truth.
I can't even list the number of "eh" blumlien recordings i made because of being too close (on stage situations w/rock bands that were spread out in front of the mic...but only around 3' ).