Topic: Another Blumlein Question - is this nuts?

[beeco]

I have been recording some friends in my living room and in the past I've used X/Y or DIN or ORTF and had the band all stand in front of the mics.  The recent post below about blumlein techniques made me wonder if it would be feasible to run my ADK's blumlein in the middle of the band, with folks on all 4 (or more) sides of the mics.  Would this even work?  Would the reverse polarity of the rear lobes of the fig-8 patterns cause some weird artifacts/phase shifting/polarity cancellations?  It seems workable in theory (ie, the stupid theory in my head that has no relation to how blumlein actually works)  to have the 4 lobes of a fig-8 pair pointing at all four points of the compass thereby giving the band full 360-degree coverage, but I have no idea what would happen if the banjo was on one side of a fig-8 and a guitar was on the other. 

Anyone have experience with running a blumlein pair in the middle of a pickin' circle or similar?

[NOLAfishwater]

yes, I have tried it out and it sounds real nice. You can also try omnis slightly split facing away from each other.

[RebelRebel]

I have been recording some friends in my living room and in the past I've used X/Y or DIN or ORTF and had the band all stand in front of the mics.  The recent post below about blumlein techniques made me wonder if it would be feasible to run my ADK's blumlein in the middle of the band, with folks on all 4 (or more) sides of the mics.  Would this even work?  Would the reverse polarity of the rear lobes of the fig-8 patterns cause some weird artifacts/phase shifting/polarity cancellations?  It seems workable in theory (ie, the stupid theory in my head that has no relation to how blumlein actually works)  to have the 4 lobes of a fig-8 pair pointing at all four points of the compass thereby giving the band full 360-degree coverage, but I have no idea what would happen if the banjo was on one side of a fig-8 and a guitar was on the other. 

Anyone have experience with running a blumlein pair in the middle of a pickin' circle or similar?

if any member of the group falls outside of the 90 degree angle of incident, you *will* get image anomalies. 

I would personally utilize omnidirectional microphones in a *circle* situation, or arrange the members in such a manner as to form a semi-circle or similar.. I have had very good results with a *single* omni microphone in the middle of a circle. off topic, but here are a couple of pictures from a Chatham County Line gig a few months ago...(two cards and one 414 in8  mode)

[bhadella]

Are those your mics that travel with CCL?  Saw them last night and was the 1st time I'd seen the neumanns below the LD....

Noticed tons of stereo panning in the mix to nice effect.

[RebelRebel]

Are those your mics that travel with CCL?  Saw them last night and was the 1st time I'd seen the neumanns below the LD....

Noticed tons of stereo panning in the mix to nice effect.

no, their microphones.  it is a simple technique, but it sounds very good. the figure 8 is important because it is the vocal mic, and because of the  included nulls, it blocks bleed from the instruments and the stage wedges.

[ghellquist]

I have tried crossed figure 8-s and the group playing around the mics. It works beautifully in a good sounding room. As always, in a room that has bad acoustics nothing except close micing everything will give useable results.

The stereo image will not be exactly as expected though so you will have to experiment a bit and move people around.

Gunnar

[beeco]

Thanks for the info, guys.  I'll try both the omnis and the crossed fig-8's when I get a chance.  I suppose I don't completely understand the fig-8 pattern.  Teddy says the Chatham County Line configuration works with a fig-8 because the nulls block bleed from the monitors and the non-vocal sources.  I guess I was thinking that the same phenomenon could affect a recording where there are instruments on both sides of the fig-8.  How can it be that sometimes the mic picks up on both sides of the capsule (both lobes of the , but at other times there's cancellation of what's on either side?  I take it that CCL runs the fig-8 with one lobe pointed at the band and the other pointed at the audience?  Is that true? 

Dang, I love Chatham County Line. 

[bhadella]

Thanks for the info, guys.  I'll try both the omnis and the crossed fig-8's when I get a chance.  I suppose I don't completely understand the fig-8 pattern.  Teddy says the Chatham County Line configuration works with a fig-8 because the nulls block bleed from the monitors and the non-vocal sources.  I guess I was thinking that the same phenomenon could affect a recording where there are instruments on both sides of the fig-8.  How can it be that sometimes the mic picks up on both sides of the capsule (both lobes of the , but at other times there's cancellation of what's on either side?  I take it that CCL runs the fig-8 with one lobe pointed at the band and the other pointed at the audience?  Is that true? 

Dang, I love Chatham County Line. 

They run an omni, not figure 8. 

[boojum]

Thanks for the info, guys.  I'll try both the omnis and the crossed fig-8's when I get a chance.  I suppose I don't completely understand the fig-8 pattern.  Teddy says the Chatham County Line configuration works with a fig-8 because the nulls block bleed from the monitors and the non-vocal sources.  I guess I was thinking that the same phenomenon could affect a recording where there are instruments on both sides of the fig-8.  How can it be that sometimes the mic picks up on both sides of the capsule (both lobes of the , but at other times there's cancellation of what's on either side?  I take it that CCL runs the fig-8 with one lobe pointed at the band and the other pointed at the audience?  Is that true? 

Dang, I love Chatham County Line. 

Are you saying that the rig is ORTF (?) plus an omni in the middle? 
They run an omni, not figure 8. 

[bhadella]

Thanks for the info, guys.  I'll try both the omnis and the crossed fig-8's when I get a chance.  I suppose I don't completely understand the fig-8 pattern.  Teddy says the Chatham County Line configuration works with a fig-8 because the nulls block bleed from the monitors and the non-vocal sources.  I guess I was thinking that the same phenomenon could affect a recording where there are instruments on both sides of the fig-8.  How can it be that sometimes the mic picks up on both sides of the capsule (both lobes of the , but at other times there's cancellation of what's on either side?  I take it that CCL runs the fig-8 with one lobe pointed at the band and the other pointed at the audience?  Is that true? 

Dang, I love Chatham County Line. 

They run an omni, not figure 8. 

Are you saying that the rig is ORTF (?) plus an omni in the middle? 

Yes.  Looks like ortf to me.

[dean]

You can put them in a semi circle in blumlein just to the point where they don't break the line and "cross over" to the other side of the mic stand.  It will sound spectacular.

The omnis will work very, very well, too.  Hard to go wrong in that situation unless the room is absolute crap.

[ShawnF]

Depending on how many people are in the group, you can even do two semicircles, one in front, one in back.  I think you mentioned four, and certainly you could experiment with this kind of setup, though I don't know if it would be preferable in your situation or not.  Not something you'd likely want to do for live performance, but for a living room recording situation, it might be useful.  Just keep away from the sides or strange things will happen.  Also, the stereo image of the "back" semicircle will be reversed.  So, if you were in a hypothetical audience, looking at the back of the "back" semicircle and could see the "front" semicircle facing you, that "front" group will image as expected:  Performers on your left will be on the left.  But for the "back" semicircle who have their backs to you, performers on your left will end up on the right side of the stereo image.  So, front-right and left-back will mix together, and front-left and back-right will mix together.

About a month ago I did a brief session for a small a cappella men's ensemble (one of a couple that exist within the Men's Glee Club at a local university that I also frequently record).  I used exactly this technique and was pleased with the results.  Two AT4050s in Blumlein>DAV BG1>Mtyek 192>R-44.  It was 12 guys, and I had them divide into two groups of six that we arranged in arcs in the front and rear of the mics.  It was good for them, too, as they could see and hear each other more clearly than a more traditional setup would allow, and it let me get the up-close "pop" sound they wanted.

Anyway, here's one track if you want to have a listen (it's a goofy song):
http://rapidshare.com/files/251037589/Steal_My_Kisses.mp3

This ended up not being the take we used, as I felt like the center is a little deemphasized compared to the sides, though having the basses on each side (by design) in this tune was going to give that impression to some degree, anyway.  While this leaves a little more "space" for the soloist, it was a little too empty otherwise for my taste, and I had the center of the arcs step in just slightly and was happier with that sound.

[Gutbucket]

This ended up not being the take we used, as I felt like the center is a little deemphasized compared to the sides, though having the basses on each side (by design) in this tune was going to give that impression to some degree, anyway.  While this leaves a little more "space" for the soloist, it was a little too empty otherwise for my taste, and I had the center of the arcs step in just slightly and was happier with that sound.

I look forward to listening to your sample.  I like using this technique and have a suggestion that you might find useful if you do this again-  You can widen the usable front & back quadrants where the performers are located and simultaneously strengthen the center image by narrowing the usual +/- 45 degree Blumlein angle between the mics.  That will increase the overlap between patterns, lessening the extreme stereo separation and solidifying the center.  It also decreases the contribution of room sound picked up from the sides by the same amount.