Topic: Advice needed on XY-stacktaping

[Popmarter]

Hi,

I need some advice on how to position the mics when stacktaping.
Tapersposition will be on a balcony, distance around 5m in front of left PA).

I would like to try XY, but I have 2 options, see pictures.

One option is two mics facing eachother on the same level (bit more easier to accomplish (st$%lth).

Second option is the 'true' XY position, which is a bit more hassle.

What would - soundwise - be the best option, or would it not make any real difference?

Thanks in advance.

[willndmb]

Personally I don't think it makes much difference and when I did it, I did same level but with a little space

[runonce]

I always like the over/under approach.

I like to think of making the "X" with the mic diaphragms as reference.

The other approach always made it seem like the opposing mic was blocking sound...

[acidjack]

I don't see much sense in stack taping XY. I know people say to do this, but I don't find it does much.  I think you're better off going A-B and just splitting as far apart as you can so you get a little stereo image.

[JimmieC]

Nice looking mics. 

[Popmarter]

@ all, thanks for the replies.

I have taped here earlier with both mics about 10 cm apart facing forward (A-B) but to get the channels more balanced, I have plans to try XY.

I am in doubt wether or not putting the mics further apart (let say 30 cm) would be good. I might pick up some crowdnoise on the left (there are stairs) and again, channelbalance might be tricky.

[Tom McCreadie]

In your equal-level picture, one mic blocks off a significant amount of sound intended for its partner mic.

There's also a small issue, though, with the arrival times: your intensity-based stereo image would contradict the image provided by the arrival-time differences. When spacing is used, the R-pointing mic needs to be closer to the R-stack than the L-pointing mic, thus ensuring that any signal from the R-stack will be stronger _and_ earlier in the R-pointing mic, thus preventing a clash between the intensity- and arrival time info. I expect you knew all that, but I thought it worthwhile restating.

And why is it such a hassle to get XY...just use one or two thread adaptors as spacers?

[acidjack]

@ all, thanks for the replies.

I have taped here earlier with both mics about 10 cm apart facing forward (A-B) but to get the channels more balanced, I have plans to try XY.

I am in doubt wether or not putting the mics further apart (let say 30 cm) would be good. I might pick up some crowdnoise on the left (there are stairs) and again, channelbalance might be tricky.

Right, and I'm going to say again - I don't think X-Y will solve that problem for you.  If anything, it might make it worse.  The theoretical ideas about XY do not, in my experience, translate all that well to recording a PA system in a venue.  I've tried it both ways a number of times to reach that conclusion.   To achieve the best channel balance, just go dead-on at the stack you're taping.  As to the split, I guess it really depends on the exact setup of where you are, but either way, I wouldn't do XY.

[runonce]

@ all, thanks for the replies.

I have taped here earlier with both mics about 10 cm apart facing forward (A-B) but to get the channels more balanced, I have plans to try XY.

I am in doubt wether or not putting the mics further apart (let say 30 cm) would be good. I might pick up some crowdnoise on the left (there are stairs) and again, channelbalance might be tricky.

I can't imagine that adding some (and just a little) space between your mics will add to your crowd noise - and will do wonders for the sense of space.

For a stack tape - I would wonder if M/S wouldn't be the ticket?

[Popmarter]

In your equal-level picture, one mic blocks off a significant amount of sound intended for its partner mic.

There's also a small issue, though, with the arrival times: your intensity-based stereo image would contradict the image provided by the arrival-time differences. When spacing is used, the R-pointing mic needs to be closer to the R-stack than the L-pointing mic, thus ensuring that any signal from the R-stack will be stronger _and_ earlier in the R-pointing mic, thus preventing a clash between the intensity- and arrival time info. I expect you knew all that, but I thought it worthwhile restating.

And why is it such a hassle to get XY...just use one or two thread adaptors as spacers?

I have read about this arrival-time difference, but I thought it does not matter because 1. I am very close to the source, and 2. because I am recording one PA only. I might be wrong about this.

The PA is (as with most PA) slightly turned right to the center of the room.

In my case I will be pointing at this left PA, does that (in case of A-B, +/-20 cm apart) I have to put the right mic slightly more to the front than the left one?

@all, my idea's about XY have changed a bit now, as most people here do not recommend XY as it does not seem to have any clear advantage. With that in mind (the hassle is: having to set up XY might be a bit to risky (st%^lth)), I will see if I can set the up A/B with a bit more space than 10cm. Thanks a lot so far!

[jefflester]

Any idea how much stage volume you'll get? I've had some success with 1 mic pointed at the PA and 1 mic pointed at the stage. It might not be balanced in volume, but you could adjust it in post.

[jibooer]

I think the XY config. is most beneficial when you want to tighten up the low-end. Even if you are getting crushed by SPL's at 5m, I still recommend spreading the mics of so at least you can produce a stereo image that perhaps could be manipulated in post by panning, eq'ing, etc.






 

[Tom McCreadie]

I have read about this arrival-time difference, but I thought it does not matter because 1. I am very close to the source, and 2. because I am recording one PA only. I might be wrong about this.

The PA is (as with most PA) slightly turned right to the center of the room.

In my case I will be pointing at this left PA, does that (in case of A-B, +/-20 cm apart) I have to put the right mic slightly more to the front than the left one?

I'm more of a 'hanging mics from the roof of a cathedral' classical guy than a ''pointing mics at distorting PA speakers'  headbanger :-), so I guess my rather generic advice wasn't so useful.

It might help, though, to have more details about your venue. For example, are you so asymmetrically seated, much closer to the L-stack, that it's not felt worthhile capturing the much weaker R stack? And what's coming out of the stacks, anyway: mono or 'stereo' (pan-potted multi mono) information? Is there much direct sound from the stage?

[F.O.Bean]

I have taped XY in a small bar taping just the left speaker and it turned out well. But the mics were like 1' from the left speaker not 15'

[noahbickart]

I once taped Ratdog at the Orpheum in Boston. They put us way back in the last row of under the balcony, so I decided to pack up my gear and just watch the show from somewhere else. Well, one thing led to another and someone handed me a good seat about 10th row way ROC in front of the right stack. So I went (I had 20+ patchers in seconds...)

I used hypers x/y 90 and was very pleased with the tape. Yes the *direct music* was mono, and dead center in my tape, but the steady stereo image of the room and crowd gave a nice image all around.

YMMV, but I think XY is a good choice for what you are doing. And I agree with the others, find a way to have the *capsules* (not necessarily the microphones) aligned perfectly one above the other.

And finally; M/S is X/Y. Whether you run M/S or L/R at the show (even with near coincident and spaced configurations!), it is always a good idea to listen to your pull through a m/s plugin. That's a great way to add ambiance to a dry recording or solve a "hole in the middle" problem. You can always apply EQ and dynamic range processing to M and S separately.