Topic: Advice for close taping in a small club

[laptaper]

I've been taping a really good local jazz band in a small bar almost every week for the last two months here in Charlottesville, with permission (natch!).  Because it's a small bar and shows are seated, I've been using my stealth mikes (DPA 4061s).  I sit right in front of the stage - since the mikes are omnis that's the only way to cut out most of the bar chatter.  (It's a narrow room, very loud and live.)  Still, the band leader and his wife (vocalist) think there's still too much, although in all other respects the recordings have been excellent.  What I'd like to try is using my AKG C480Bs with the CK-63 hypers to see if they make a difference, mounted on a 1" tabletop stand.  So my question is, what would be the best configuration to use with the AKGs?  Here's a rough diagram of the front of the bar, the stage and my location.



There are two speakers about eight feet up for the vocalist.  All the other sound, including amps for the guitar and bass, is contained on the stage.  Even though the stage is to the left of the bar, I sit a little more in the center to get the vocals better, and also so as not to catch reflected sound from the wall.  As long as I'm (i.e., my mikes) facing the stage directly, I still get a very good, balanced sound.

Thanks in advance for any advice! 

[dean]

I think hypers are too tight of a pattern and you'll end up with a huge hole in the middle of the recording.  Go with cards running DIN or ORTF.

Bummer about the vocals, otherwise on stage split omnis would work fantastically.

[laptaper]

I think cards would defeat the purpose.  Remember these are mikes on a table, not a stand, and two feet behind you there's someone bloviating about his/her dissertation while the music's playing.  A tight pickup pattern is the whole point, to make sure only the sound in front's recorded.

I agree about the split omnis.  Unfortunately, the vocals aren't the only limiting factor.  To stay in the band's and bar's good books everything needs to be self-contained, nothing going beyond the table.

[dean]

I think cards would defeat the purpose.  Remember these are mikes on a table, not a stand, and two feet behind you there's someone bloviating about his/her dissertation while the music's playing.  A tight pickup pattern is the whole point, to make sure only the sound in front's recorded.

I agree about the split omnis.  Unfortunately, the vocals aren't the only limiting factor.  To stay in the band's and bar's good books everything needs to be self-contained, nothing going beyond the table.

Hypers have rear pickup, cards don't, so the bloviating has a better chance of getting picked up with the hypers from behind.

Regarding the tight pickup of the hypers, the tightness is in how narrow they run.  Cards are a bit wider.  Given how close to the stage you are, you risk a hole in the middle if you run too wide to capture PA pickup - losing the instruments on stage, or miss the PA entirely if you run tight enough to avoid that hole - losing the vocals.

So my opinions are based on how close to the stage you are plus the rear pickup on hypers.  Additionally, I ran xy hypers on stage lip in a similar circumstance (but no vocals) and it left a gigantic hole in the middle of the recording.

YMMV, of course.  Good luck!

use non-traditonal techniques. Split the cards, point them straight forward at each stack. Splitting them accounts for the off-axis angling that most stereo patterns need. POinting the mics more forward drastically reduces the rearward influence.
They are directional for a reason, use that to your advantage.

Is it possible to get an onstage vocal monitor, for instance, near the stagelip?
They can be used very well to bring vocals into an onstage split omni / baffled omni recording.

Based on his not having a stand, I don't think he can run the split cards, unfortunately, though that would work really well.  Also, if he were able to clamp to the ceiling it'd really help with cutting the chatter.

Good point about running onstage and capturing a vocal monitor.  If that's possible it's well worth a shot...

[easy jim]

I think cards would defeat the purpose.  Remember these are mikes on a table, not a stand, and two feet behind you there's someone bloviating about his/her dissertation while the music's playing.  A tight pickup pattern is the whole point, to make sure only the sound in front's recorded.

Keep in mind that hyper-cardioid/super-cardioids have a rear lobe and they do pick up some from behind.  They attenuate more sound from the sides than from behind.

use non-traditonal techniques. Split the cards, point them straight forward at each stack. Splitting them accounts for the off-axis angling that most stereo patterns need. POinting the mics more forward drastically reduces the rearward influence.
They are directional for a reason, use that to your advantage.

I'll second Moke's advice.  If you can split/mount the 480s w/ ck61s on either side of the room near the speakers, and them aim them in a little toward center stage, you should get a good image with everything you need.  I use that set-up technique in a aimilar small room that holds acoustic shows.

Based on his not having a stand, I don't think he can run the split cards, unfortunately, though that would work really well.  Also, if he were able to clamp to the ceiling it'd really help with cutting the chatter.

Any chance of clamping to something on either side of the room for a split set-up?  The ceiling should work really well too w/ cardioids ORTF.

[Tim]

use non-traditonal techniques. Split the cards, point them straight forward at each stack. Splitting them accounts for the off-axis angling that most stereo patterns need. POinting the mics more forward drastically reduces the rearward influence.
They are directional for a reason, use that to your advantage.

Is it possible to get an onstage vocal monitor, for instance, near the stagelip?
They can be used very well to bring vocals into an onstage split omni / baffled omni recording.

^^^ what he said

[laptaper]

Thanks for all the help.  I did NOT know about the rear pickup on hypers - I thought they picked up the front only.  That makes a huge difference.

In that case it's probably best to go with the cards DIN.  Clamps won't work because the table's right next to the entrance, and someone walking in, leaving, or walking onto or off the stage (as happens often as solos are traded) could easily bump into them.  On the table in elastic shockmounts will be a lot better.  And the stage is already cramped as is (see above diagram) - it's more a display case than a stage.  So I don't think an onstage vocal monitor is going to be viable just for one amateur taper.

Muchos garcias, compadres!

[dean]

Thanks for all the help.  I did NOT know about the rear pickup on hypers - I thought they picked up the front only.  That makes a huge difference.

In that case it's probably best to go with the cards DIN.  Clamps won't work because the table's right next to the entrance, and someone walking in, leaving, or walking onto or off the stage (as happens often as solos are traded) could easily bump into them.  On the table in elastic shockmounts will be a lot better.  And the stage is already cramped as is (see above diagram) - it's more a display case than a stage.  So I don't think an onstage vocal monitor is going to be viable just for one amateur taper.

Muchos garcias, compadres!

DIN Cards will definitely be a start.  See what it nets you as it's the easiest.  But if it's still not pleasing to the ears of the musicians, you'll want to investigate the clamp situations that Moke is recommending to whatever extent possible.  And indeed, ceiling mounted DIN would likely work out very, very well, but it's not necessarily easy to do and requires interesting work with how you run your cables...

Do please let us know how your attempts work out!   

[Gutbucket]

Here's the polar pattern plot for your CK63's-



The pattern varies a bit by frequency but the cap is least sensitive around 120 to 130 degrees off-axis.

Keeping in mind the potential 'hole in the middle' issue, consider arrangements that point that least sensitive part of the mic's pickup pattern towards the crowd to maximally reduce yapping.   In such a small room and with the stage to one side, you may try forgetting about the right FOH monitor and just concentrate on getting the on stage sound and the left monitor, especially if the only thing amped though there is vocals.

Moke raised an important question that others picked up on which could give you lots of options.  Is there any on-stage monitor for the singer?  And no, you probably don't need to move it or point it.

If so you could mic stage-lip, on stage, on the ceiling (sounds like that's out), or even behind the band on the back wall with your 4061's - all of those options will reduce the chatter by increasing the volume of the band over that of the chatter. 

I don't know how you're using them, but after I get some lunch I'll PM you details on ways to use your 4061's that will likely reduce the yapping considerably and should work well from your current front table position that I developed in a very similar scenario.

Since this is a regular gig you can try out different things and see what works and sounds best.  A golden opportunity!

[edit to cross out 'stage-lip' since that would likely not capture the monitor vocals]

[Will_S]

Thanks for all the help.  I did NOT know about the rear pickup on hypers - I thought they picked up the front only.  That makes a huge difference.

Not really, since you are planning to run the mics in DIN or a similar stereo configuration.  When you do this, cards are picking up sound from behnd the recording position, as the nulls are now pointing angled back to the left and back to the right.  So overall, they pick up sound from all directions.

Conversely, with hypers at an angle the rear lobe therefore also goes off at an angle, while sounds behind you are closer (though not completely in) the nulls for both mics.  Overall hypers will pick up less ambient noise than cards when run in a stereo configuration.

Edit:  If you're really concerned with sound from the rear, I'd take Moke's suggestion and run split cardioids pointed more or less straight ahead, maybe with a baffle between them.

[laptaper]

A lot of these ideas are really good, except that I still need to basically keep everything on the table.  Room's at a premium; my table's right near the entrance, there are people coming and going not just through it and to and from the stage, but also squeezing(!) between tables.  Having anything higher profile not only detracts from the atmosphere of the place but potentially endangers the equipment itself.  Given that terrific diagram of the CK-63 polar pattern (thanks, Gutbucket!) it may be better after all to use those.  Focusing on just one speaker will probably be okay.

I've been using the DPA's in stealth mode, mounted on my glasses frames, wires down the back of my shirt into the Edirol R-09 in my pocket (or on the table).  The only time I taped nonstealth with them, the wires were flopping all over the table - they're so light, there's no way they'll stay in one place!  That seemed a bit dangerous with all the foot traffic, so even though I'm taping openly I still have to use stealth.   Putting the mikes behind the stage would, IMO, result in a far less balanced recording.  There's only room for two people abreast, with the trumpet and sax players are up front, the drummer and guitarist behind them and the bassist in the back.  Sometimes there's a keyboard player - he can't even fit on the stage and has to play right next to and in front of my table, along the wall.

[kskreider]

You should also take that rectangular stage and show us how the band is configured.  In that set up I would avoid the PA altogether (as I try to as often as possible)  I used to tape a jazz trio and I would set up pointing my config in between the guitar and bass, away from the drummer.

Anyway, I would try to set up low on that front corner of the stage and go from there.  I do X-Y on stage a lot, but you could try ORTF with some great spatial results or do what Moke suggested and try what sounds great to your ears.  The best part is that it is a regular gig so just go and experiment and take notes on what works and what does not.

[Gutbucket]

...The only time I taped nonstealth with them, the wires were flopping all over the table - they're so light, there's no way they'll stay in one place!  That seemed a bit dangerous with all the foot traffic, so even though I'm taping openly I still have to use stealth.

With those little DPAs 'tape openly' usually means pulling out the roll of tape and taping them down.
..reminder to keep st3lth talk st3lth. PM on its way in a few on some ways to use your DPAs that will cut down some chatter.

Putting the mikes behind the stage would, IMO, result in a far less balanced recording.  There's only room for two people abreast, with the trumpet and sax players are up front, the drummer and guitarist behind them and the bassist in the back.  Sometimes there's a keyboard player - he can't even fit on the stage and has to play right next to and in front of my table, along the wall.  

Yeah, the brass players will certainly be more directional, but you may be surprised at what odd configurations will work.  If the trumpet is really loud directly in front, the balance could even be better with him facing away. I bet you can hear the brass anywhere in that room.  IMhO, brass tends to sound fine, sometimes better when it's deeper in the recording with some room 'verb on it than other stuff on-stage like the bass or the drums.  If it sounds good behind the brass players on or behind the stage or against the wall, then putting mics there may be a good bet. That could be very 'low key' and out of the way as well.  Worth a try I think.

It seems to me the most difficult aspect of this scenario will be getting good clear vocals.  That will ultimately limit the choices of what works and what won't.  I've had great results taping those little DPAs to a couple lengths of TIG welding rod (think nice, straight coat hanger wire) to form two super-thin antenna-like things that I could tape to the front of the stage and bend into position. Maybe make a nice arc that gets the mics a few feet up off the stage and a few feet or so in from the lip.  If you use black tape it's nearly invisible from the crowd and no one but the band might know you're recording.  That would get your gear out of the traffic too and avoid bodies walking between your mics and the band, no mater how protected they are.  If this was instrumentals only, that would in fact be my first choice.  Again this works to reduce the chatter by getting far enough away from the talkers and closer to the band so that the chatter is only heard between numbers.

If you try something like that and find the band sounds great, but it lacks the all important vocal clarity, you might tape those same little stalks to each side of the vocal monitor (if there is one) which is probably centered in the front of the stage facing up towards the singer, away from the crowd. The vocal monitor would then project up towards the backside of the omnidirectional mics.  You'd need to bend the support wires to get an nice spacing for the mics and catch just the right amount and correct tone of the vocal, which will take some trial & error (you probably want to get them up and away from the face of the monitor a good bit), but if done right the vocals would be clear and centered in your recording.

Have fun with the options.

[illconditioned]

Is there anything on the ceiling to clamp to???  That is what I usually end up doing.  I've even go a rig the includes mics (Beyerdynamic MC930) homemade battery box, and recorder (Edirol R09):


When I record in small rooms, I try to clamp my mics and then move back.  I figure if I can keep my mics out of the way *and* give premium spots to other customers, the management is going to love me even more.

Oh yeah, I try to give the management a few recordings whenever I can.  You'd be surprised how people lighten up when you give them something in return...

  Richard

[Gutbucket]

^^^^
Love it.  That rig is so fugly only a DIY mother could love it.


+T for the compact all in one clamp-on kit!
-T for wire routing, tape, hot glue and epoxy application
+T for posting that pic

You net a +1

Love,
another DIY mother

[laptaper]

Can't clamp anything.  Per bar management my rig needs to be low profile, i.e., people at the table behind me shouldn't be able to see it.  Personally I agree - while I don't want loud chatter going into my mikes (and it's the band who has the problem with this on the recordings, not I), I don't want other people to feel they have to shut up just for my recording.  I'm not paying any more than they are and it tends to build resentment that can ultimately backfire.  I don't even know if my idea of a simple tabletop stand will be allowed, since the mikes will be visible where my stealthies aren't.  Me, I'm just hoping someone doesn't dump a drink all over them.

[dean]

Ah, that sucks.  I recommend you talk this ensemble into another venue to take care of the nearly unwinnable issue's you're facing at this place...

[darkfunk]

with such a cooperative band i'd be thinking multitrack (esp. if they have piano)...sorry if thats sacrilege!  ambient stereo pair is always the better part of my mix but it's nice to have some post-production mixing options when working in 'acoustically challenged' spaces. 

[Gutbucket]

Can't clamp anything.  Per bar management my rig needs to be low profile, i.e., people at the table behind me shouldn't be able to see it.  Personally I agree - while I don't want loud chatter going into my mikes (and it's the band who has the problem with this on the recordings, not I), I don't want other people to feel they have to shut up just for my recording.  I'm not paying any more than they are and it tends to build resentment that can ultimately backfire.  I don't even know if my idea of a simple tabletop stand will be allowed, since the mikes will be visible where my stealthies aren't.  Me, I'm just hoping someone doesn't dump a drink all over them.

Seriously, give the ideas I PM'd you about a go.  It will reduce the chatter.. enough to satisfy the band?  Won't know 'till you try, but you can't get any lower profile than that.  Or maybe try taping your 4061's to the front edge or corners of the table (you might tape the wires to the underside of the table with the mic grids just barely sticking out past the front edge from underneath).  Very low pro and drink protected too.