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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: optimisticpessimist on January 13, 2010, 12:55:44 PM
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I've done some looking around, but haven't been able to find any "handheld" 4-track recorders. Does anyone know if one exsits? If not, what are the smallest 4-track recorders available?
Thanks for your time.
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zoom h4 has to be the smallest
but is limited compared to others like the r44 or 744
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This little guy will record eight tracks, kind of spendy though.
(http://www.sonosax.ch/recorders/minir82/minir82_p.jpg)
http://www.sonosax.ch/recorders/minir82/minir82_index.html (http://www.sonosax.ch/recorders/minir82/minir82_index.html)
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:P Phew... that would be nice to have. $5k though?
Not sure I want to limit myself to 16/44.1 only... with the H4.
Doesn't seem too promising for what I'm looking for. Ah well. :-\
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Zoom H4n does 4 channels and at 24/96 but you need to use a combination of the built in mics and the combo XLR/TRS input to get 4 channels.
http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1994
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Yeah I had seen that, but I'm looking to run two sets of external mics into the same recorder.
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I've done some looking around, but haven't been able to find any "handheld" 4-track recorders. Does anyone know if one exsits? If not, what are the smallest 4-track recorders available?
Thanks for your time.
The R-44 is pretty small, and pretty lightweight, and certainly more feature-rich than the Zoom. I don't think I've seen a comparable 4-track unit that is smaller. You will need (most likely) to use external power, though, which requires a DVD battery.
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Yeah I had seen that, but I'm looking to run two sets of external mics into the same recorder.
You can use four external mics with the H4n: two mics connected to the XLR inputs running on phantom power and another two connected to the 3.5 mm stereo jack beneath the built-in mics. For the 3.5 mm jack, you'd have to use mics running on their own power or plug-in power or you'd need to connect them through a battery-powered phantom adapter.
I've used my H4n with two stereo bars and two Rode NT-2A on a mic stand for quad channel atmo recordings during our xmas vacation and they've turned out fine.
This is what it looks like:
http://www.fotoralf.de/temp/D-09-12806.jpg
Next, I'll test the version with four external mics using a small portable 12-to-48 V adapter.
If anyone is able to playback Fraunhofer surround MP3s or DTS I could upload an example of Dunkirk harbour noises recorded with this set-up.
Ralf
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What if both sets of mics I'm running terminate in 1/8" plugs?
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What if both sets of mics I'm running terminate in 1/8" plugs?
then get male mini to dual male xlr cable. that will allow you to utilize the xlr inputs. just make sure don't turn phantom power on.
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What if both sets of mics I'm running terminate in 1/8" plugs?
...in which case I suppose you wouldn't even need 48 volt phantom power? Even better. Just get two adapter cables, one from 1/8" to 1/4" inch and another one from 1/8" to 2 x male XLR and Bob's your uncle.
If you know at which end to hold a soldering iron, you might even fit two 1/8" sockets into the upper portion of a Zoom H2 and have the smallest 4-channel rig money can buy.
Just out of curiosity, what mics are you using?
Ralf
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Thanks! I figured adapter cables was the answer... just making sure I was understanding this unit correctly. Trying to keep the rig as small as possible, obviously.
I'm running DPA 4061s and Church Audio AT831s.
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You may need an attenuator or preamp going into the mic input. M-audio makes an inline 1/8" 10 dB attenuator. That input is easily overloaded.
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You can use four external mics with the H4n: two mics connected to the XLR inputs running on phantom power and another two connected to the 3.5 mm stereo jack beneath the built-in mics..
Interesting..
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You can use four external mics with the H4n: two mics connected to the XLR inputs running on phantom power and another two connected to the 3.5 mm stereo jack beneath the built-in mics..
Interesting..
I think you have to drop your resolution for 4-tracks, no? Down to 16/48 or 24/48 or something I think? Might be wrong.
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I think you have to drop your resolution for 4-tracks, no? Down to 16/48 or 24/48 or something I think?
That's correct.
That said, I've never met anyone who was able to spot the difference between 48 and 96 kHz, let alone with a portable recorder costing a mere 250 euro.
Ralf
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Yeah it looks like that's one improvement from the H4 to the H4n. 4Ch recording with the H4 was confined to 16/44.1. The H4n does up to 24/48 in 4Ch mode, which is what I'm looking for.
I'm looking for a way to replace two R-09's with a single recorder, and this may be my answer.
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I think the smallest 4 track combination is from Core-Sound:
1. Tetra mic single point four channel mic ($1000)
2. 4Mic four-channel, 24/192 mic pre-amp/A-D converter ($900)
The 4Mic can output four individual digital channels (two coax, two optical)
or can multiplex the channels so four mics becomes two digital outputs
for capture by a device with two digital inputs, such as the M-Audio
Microtrack II.
edit: note that the Microtrack II has one physical digital input, capable of
receiving two channels in digital form
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The 4Mic can output four individual digital channels (two coax, two optical) or can multiplex the channels so four mics becomes two digital outputs for capture by a device with two digital inputs, such as the M-Audio Microtrack II.
Wait...The Microtrack has two digital inputs? Mine has a single spdif in (rca).
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The 4Mic can output four individual digital channels (two coax, two optical) or can multiplex the channels so four mics becomes two digital outputs for capture by a device with two digital inputs, such as the M-Audio Microtrack II.
Wait...The Microtrack has two digital inputs? Mine has a single spdif in (rca).
No, the Microtrack has only one SPDIF input, as do most recorders with a digital input. Each SPDIF input channel can carry two channels.
The 4Mic squeezes 4 channels into those available two. Besides being a 4 channel mic preamp and ADC, the 4Mic performs the unique trick of taking the 4 resulting digital signals and mulitplexing them together to form 2 digital signals at twice the sample rate. That signal can then be recorded by any recorder with a single digital SPIF input which supports a high enough sample rate to record the multiplexed signal.
So for example, if the 4mic is set to sample the four inputs at 24/48 (I don't know the specs but I assume it does 24bit), you can have it output a single stereo SPDIF stream at 24/96. The recorder just sees and records a 24/96 stereo signal and does it's regular thing.
Then there must be some sort of software that de-multiplexes the signal so that you can retrive the four 24/48 signals again. The 24/96 multiplexed signal is not usable by itself without decoding.
It's a clever work around and an interesting approach, announced a few years ago as a companion to the tetramic, but I wasn't aware that it ever was released. Maybe it is now? No reason it would need to be used with a tetramic, you could use any 4 signal input.
This is sort of the reverse of the S/MUX tech which provided a way to transmit two high sample rate channels via multiple lower sample rate channels through an interface that only supported bit rates of up to 48kHz like LightPipe and ADAT.
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Here's another one with four mics built in. Looks like only two external mics can be connected. Time for a mod that replaces the built-in mic capsules with two mini phone
jacks!
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=131123.0
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I'd like a simple R-09 sized 6 track, three stereo inputs, 9v plug in power, quality preamps and no built-in mics, please. :)
Would be easily do-able, but a small target market. :-\
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I'd like a simple R-09 sized 6 track, three stereo inputs, 9v plug in power, quality preamps and no built-in mics, please. :)
QFT
I'm tired of all these units with built in mics. Almost would like to chop 'em off myself, just to save the space.
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You can use four external mics with the H4n: two mics connected to the XLR inputs running on phantom power and another two connected to the 3.5 mm stereo jack beneath the built-in mics. For the 3.5 mm jack, you'd have to use mics running on their own power or plug-in power or you'd need to connect them through a battery-powered phantom adapter.
Ralf
Hi, I'm looking to buy the h4n and the above post makes the h4n sound like exactly what I was looking for. I'm a bit of a noob - so i'd like to know exactly what adapter cables / attenuators i'd need if i had to use 4 external dynamic mics with the h4n - 4 SM57s for instance. Thanks!
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The H4N has two XLR mic inputs on the end opposite the built-in mics.
You'll use a standard XLR-XLR cable from the mic to the recorder for
these two inputs.
The H4N has a 1/8" stereo mini phone jack on the back side a couple of
inches below the built in mics. This is the input for a second pair of
external mics. The XLR cables from the mics plug into a Y cable adapter
such as this Hosa CYX-401F:
http://www.avalive.com/Hosa-Cables/CYX-401F/46654/productDetail.php
Plugging a cable into the back of the recorder makes it rest unevenly on a
table. If you're not using a full height tripod, you might want to mount the
recorder on a tabletop tripod or a flexible tripod like the Joby Gorillapod.
The H4N has a socket for a tripod screw on the back.
Flintstone
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Yeah I had seen that, but I'm looking to run two sets of external mics into the same recorder.
You can use four external mics with the H4n: two mics connected to the XLR inputs running on phantom power and another two connected to the 3.5 mm stereo jack beneath the built-in mics. For the 3.5 mm jack, you'd have to use mics running on their own power or plug-in power or you'd need to connect them through a battery-powered phantom adapter.
I've used my H4n with two stereo bars and two Rode NT-2A on a mic stand for quad channel atmo recordings during our xmas vacation and they've turned out fine.
This is what it looks like:
http://www.fotoralf.de/temp/D-09-12806.jpg
Next, I'll test the version with four external mics using a small portable 12-to-48 V adapter.
If anyone is able to playback Fraunhofer surround MP3s or DTS I could upload an example of Dunkirk harbour noises recorded with this set-up.
Ralf
Has anyone used 4 external dynamic mics with the H4n? can someone please upload soundclips?
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Has anyone used 4 external dynamic mics with the H4n? can someone please upload soundclips?
Why dynamic? AFAIK, most folks here use condensors/electret because they are better suited for live music. What's your intended application?
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Has anyone used 4 external dynamic mics with the H4n? can someone please upload soundclips?
Why dynamic? AFAIK, most folks here use condensors/electret because they are better suited for live music. What's your intended application?
My intended application is recording live music but I don't currently have access to condensers. I'm going to buy a pair soon, but I need to use the h4n with my sm57s till then.
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The H4N will provide 48V phantom power to pro condenser mics through its pair of XLR inputs. The 1/8" TRS mini phone jack on the back of the recorder provides low voltage "Plug-In Power" rather than phantom power. So you'll probably need an external battery box to power the condenser mics you connect to the 1/8" jack. There are plenty of solutions for this, but it makes the rig more cumbersome to set up.
Flintstone
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The H4N will provide 48V phantom power to pro condenser mics through its pair of XLR inputs. The 1/8" TRS mini phone jack on the back of the recorder provides low voltage "Plug-In Power" rather than phantom power. So you'll probably need an external battery box to power the condenser mics you connect to the 1/8" jack. There are plenty of solutions for this, but it makes the rig more cumbersome to set up.
Flintstone
but since he's not using condensers, that's generally out the window.
I see the problem with using dynamics as two aspects:
1) You'll need gain. I havn't used the standard issue shures, but ribbon (dynamic) mics typically eat gain for breakfast.
2) You won't have a linear frequency response across the spectrum. Just be aware of it. There isn't anything practical that you can do about it either based on my understanding of dynamic mics. If that doens't bother you, have at, but be aware that it may not sound as you want.
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but since he's not using condensers, that's generally out the window.
I see the problem with using dynamics as two aspects:
1) You'll need gain. I havn't used the standard issue shures, but ribbon (dynamic) mics typically eat gain for breakfast.
2) You won't have a linear frequency response across the spectrum. Just be aware of it. There isn't anything practical that you can do about it either based on my understanding of dynamic mics. If that doens't bother you, have at, but be aware that it may not sound as you want.
ok so what can i do to boost the gain on the 1/8" TRS mini phone jack? can i use a device of some sort?
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but since he's not using condensers, that's generally out the window.
I see the problem with using dynamics as two aspects:
1) You'll need gain. I havn't used the standard issue shures, but ribbon (dynamic) mics typically eat gain for breakfast.
2) You won't have a linear frequency response across the spectrum. Just be aware of it. There isn't anything practical that you can do about it either based on my understanding of dynamic mics. If that doens't bother you, have at, but be aware that it may not sound as you want.
ok so what can i do to boost the gain on the 1/8" TRS mini phone jack? can i use a device of some sort?
You'll have to boost gain regardless of the input. It's based on the mv/pa rating how hot of a mic output it is. My beyers and many AKGs have upwards of 30mv/pa, neumanns are around 14mv/pa if I remember correctly, and many ribbons I've seen are around 1mv/pa. All this translates to extra gain you'll have to use to get a signal near zero db on your recorder.
Whether that gain boost is done on your recorder or via an external pre-amp is the question. I'm not familiar with the zoom enough to tell you how much gain it can provide, but at the end of the day, your biggest limiting factor in a result that will make you happy is most likely the mics you are using and not the lack of gain behind them. It could be that you feed a quiet signal to your recorder and amp it in post processing (which brings up the noise floor) and your most distinct sound characteristic isn't the noise floor, but the one imparted by the sound signature of your mics. In short, short of borrowing equipment (a pre-amp essentially), I'd save my money for condensers.
If you have further questions about your setup, I suggest a seperate thread so it doesn't get lost (and this is rather off topic for this one).
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The H4N will provide 48V phantom power to pro condenser mics through its pair of XLR inputs. The 1/8" TRS mini phone jack on the back of the recorder provides low voltage "Plug-In Power" rather than phantom power. So you'll probably need an external battery box to power the condenser mics you connect to the 1/8" jack. There are plenty of solutions for this, but it makes the rig more cumbersome to set up.
Flintstone
but since he's not using condensers, that's generally out the window.
I see the problem with using dynamics as two aspects:
1) You'll need gain. I havn't used the standard issue shures, but ribbon (dynamic) mics typically eat gain for breakfast.
2) You won't have a linear frequency response across the spectrum. Just be aware of it. There isn't anything practical that you can do about it either based on my understanding of dynamic mics. If that doens't bother you, have at, but be aware that it may not sound as you want.
Grayson, I ran Senn 421s, Beyer M88s, and M160 ribbons taping the Grateful Dead in the early-mid '80s and did not notice a problem where I needed extreme amounts of gain to run them for concert taping.
In fact, as I moved to condensers, I found very little difference in the gain settings I used on my D5 for those compared to the dynamics.
Yes, on paper, the specs tell a story of lower sensitivity and not ruler flat response compared to condensers, but in actual concert taping applications, I don't recall thinking that dynamics sounded remarkably worse for it.