Topic: Final decision: SP-CMC-?

[Mr.Scully]

It took me more than a week to read all the discussions here and download some samples. I've already bought an Edirol R-09HR from ebay yesterday and now I need to buy a mic. I'm known for changing my opinion almost every day :-) but I have already decided I like the sound of Audio Technica mics from Sound Professionals most. I've also decided I want the best stealth mic they manufacture so I increased my budget from $100 to some $250+ :-) And now I have to decide between:

SP-CMC-8 (AT943) $259 cardioid or omni?
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-8

SP-CMC-4U (AT853) $199 cardioid or omni?
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4U

I've heard lots of good things about AT853 but is it really better than AT943? (then why is it cheaper? because of the bigger size?). I'd love to use the croakie mount which probably won't be possible in case of SP-CMC-4U? Apparently somebody here uses an AT943 body with AT853 elements but it's the elements that make the whole thing big, right?

And my second problem is obvious (and everlasting) - cardioids or omnis? I'm well aware of the differences and I know the best option is to have both of them :-) But which ones are more universal? The omnis seem to have a better "live feel" but talking in the audience has always annoyed me :-) Cardioids pick the sound better but I've been warned not to use them because something can go wrong very easily - for example if I turn my head too often.

My taping (always stealth):
Music - 99% = loud (hard)rock gigs
Venues - 70% indoors standing among loud audience in front of the stage, 15% indoor sitting, 15% outdoor gigs

P.S. I also did hear some nice things about the MM mics but I've downloaded a sample of Smashing Pumpkins done with MM-HLSC-1 and I wasn't impressed.

[Arni99]

In your case(hardrock) I´d go for the low-sens-modded SP-CMC-8(AT943).
Some here say the AT943s don´t benefit from the low-sens-mod, others say they had distortion with the standard AT943s....

Cards are the better "all for one" mic ...indoor shows with chatty crowds and bad acoustics =>that´s where cards should be chosen.

A good taper NEVER turns his head or moves during the show  , you need a good (and pretty) masseuse after the show so be prepared !

You also need a battery box...12V(50 hours) are smallest...9V are slightly larger and longer lasting(300 hours).

For in front of stack taping with earplugs you could use omnis too ....more low frequencies.

THE GOOD thing using sp-cmc-8 are the iNTERCHANGEABLE capsules!

You can always get omni caps later for 120$ NEW or used here in the yard sale and use them on the same mic-bodies.

Low-sens-modded AT853(SP-CMC-4U) perform very well too at high SPL but are bigger than AT943s.

another option: Church cardioid mics from Chris Church here who sells his mics with interchangeable capsules now aswell.

[run_run_run]

did you see this?

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,107531.0.html

[Mr.Scully]

How big problem is turning my head when recording with cardioids? I mean the sound is all around me anyway because the gig is loud... for example I can be standing right in front of the stage and there's this catwalk that leads into the crowd... for acoustic set etc. so I HAVE TO turn my head for a few songs at that point Does the sound quality dramatically decrease? Or will I just have to increase the level/volume?

Interchangeable capsules are nice but then it's another $120... at first I wanted to get a $100 mic and now we're at some $400, not counting a preamp/battery! :-) The budget is not unlimited And I don't know how I'd decide before each gig anyway because I don't know the acoustics of each venue...

The low-sens mod is probably not important for me as I'll get a battery box with bass roll off anyway.

run_run_run - yes, I did but the SoundPro guys sell the SP-CMC-8 body for $120 (using a discount voucher) and this guy's price was first $150, now $100 + shipping to EU... so no price difference for me.

[Liquid Drum]

How big problem is turning my head when recording with cardioids? I mean the sound is all around me anyway because the gig is loud... for example I can be standing right in front of the stage and there's this catwalk that leads into the crowd... for acoustic set etc. so I HAVE TO turn my head for a few songs at that point Does the sound quality dramatically decrease? Or will I just have to increase the level/volume?

You will encounter 'phasing' if you do this. Basically the sound will keep changing from left to right and vice versa every time you turn your head. Believe me, it can be annoying when listening back to a recording.

If you want to move your head freely (like I prefer myself) then mount the mics to your collar either side of your neck.

[Arni99]

Bass-roll-off using cards is something I would NEVER use!
Cards have a "natural" roll-off at low frequencies.

Omnis usually pick up 20-20.000 Hz and cards 40(or 50) - 20.000 Hz.

For omnis its a different story.

AND the bbox will have no IMPACT at all if the mic itself distorts at high SPL, because the BBOX comes after the mic capsule in the chain.

=> you can´t get rid of distortion by using a bbox with bass-roll-off if the mic is the reason for distortion.

[su6oxone]

It took me more than a week to read all the discussions here and download some samples. I've already bought an Edirol R-09HR from ebay yesterday and now I need to buy a mic. I'm known for changing my opinion almost every day :-) but I have already decided I like the sound of Audio Technica mics from Sound Professionals most.

With your higher budget, I would recommend the SP CMC-4U w/low sens mod like mentioned above ^^^.  If you primarily stealth, it's not a bad idea to spend a bit more and get the SP CMC-8 w/low sens mod.  I would forget the omnis and get either card or hyper card caps.  I've used hypers with the CMC-4 several times recently and liked the results in a variety of venues (small clubs, outdoors, larger venues).  For the CMC-8, you can choose which type of cap to start out with, while the CMC-4U you can only get cards and then buy other caps.

[Mr.Scully]

So is the SP-CMC-4U actually any better than SP-CMC-8? I haven't come across many samples (if any) from rock gigs that could be compared...

Arni99 - the mic can handle some 120 dB so is there actually a reason to be afraid of distortion?

[su6oxone]

So is the SP-CMC-4U actually any better than SP-CMC-8? I haven't come across many samples (if any) from rock gigs that could be compared...

Arni99 - the mic can handle some 120 dB so is there actually a reason to be afraid of distortion?

I wouldn't say that either is better, but just that the CMC-8 is smaller and more stealthy, especially if you get the skinny cable option.  My CMC-4 distorted at several average rock concerts until I got the low sens mod, and several people have said that the CMC-8 can distort at high SPL as well.  The low sens mod is a safe bet, just use it with a preamp like the 9100 if you need to tape quieter acts or songs. 

[nameloc01]

Cmc4U.phantom power. No low sens mod.
End of worries.

[Arni99]

So is the SP-CMC-4U actually any better than SP-CMC-8? I haven't come across many samples (if any) from rock gigs that could be compared...

Arni99 - the mic can handle some 120 dB so is there actually a reason to be afraid of distortion?

Those figures (120 db) are mostly valid for correct powering..3 wire...with phantom power adpaters.
You´ll be using the 2 wire setup with the 3.5mm(1/8") plug which is NOT how the mics are designed for being used by Audio Technica.

Get the sp-cmc-8 cardioids with the low-sens-mod and all will be fine.
Use a battery box for providing proper power to the mics.
Your edirol plugin-power does NOT provide 9V....

[Mr.Scully]

Arni99 - will I need the high SPL mod on the mic even if I use this battery module (which itself is named "high SPL battery module" in the SP e-shop)?
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-8

[Arni99]

Arni99 - will I need the high SPL mod on the mic even if I use this battery module (which itself is named "high SPL battery module" in the SP e-shop)?
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-8

YES.
The 59$ bbox will power your mics with 9V.
This battery box should always be used, even when taping silent concerts.
If not, your mics performance will be worse regarding dynamic range and SPL-handling.

[Mr.Scully]

To summarize it, answers to my questions are basically these:

- SP-CMC-8 cardioids are more universal, + later get omni caps for $120
- apply the low sens mod ($25)
- get the battery box ($79), use the bass roll off filter only for omnis (and wisely, of course!)
- + light-weight cable for stealth taping ($20)
- + rotating AT clips? any better than the standard ones?

Some of you guys seem to prefer the SP-CMC-4U but if there's no big difference in sound quality, I'd obviously prefer the SP-CMC-8 because of its smaller size...

[Arni99]

- + rotating AT clips? any better than the standard ones?

Some of you guys seem to prefer the SP-CMC-4U but if there's no big difference in sound quality, I'd obviously prefer the SP-CMC-8 because of its smaller size...

The standard clips are ok, clip them to your tshirts-collar left + right side of your neck.