Topic: Team classical recording

[Gutbucket]

Hi fanior, Schoeps and Neumann are highly respected in acoustic/classical recording world, but IMO you are pretty well set for getting into this genre of recording using the gear you already have.  If you are happy with your minature omnis for recoding rock shows, you'll probably be even happier using them for this type of material.  Of course directional mics can work very well also and can be a better answer for some situations, but honestly I feel they have more value vs omnis in addressing problems of rock type shows and their associated acoustic challenges such as less than acoustically great sounding rooms and noisy crowds.  The Blumlein technique is an exception to that, in that it only works well in situations where omnis also work. Fortunately with this type of music, you're more likey to find quiet attentive audiences listening to unamplified musicians in good to excellent sounding spaces- situations where omnis can really shine and are often the first choice.

Your 4060s can be rigged for open recording and are more than capable of producing excellent recordings in these types of situations. I'd concentrate on the gear you have for a while and explore different ways to rig it for this type of thing: A-B spaced; baffled techniques like using a Jecklin disk; boundary mounted against the stage surface itself, on the back of chairs, on walls, balconies; etc.  Their small size is a real advantage even with open recording, sometimes allowing you to put the mics places that would not be allowed with more physically and visually imposing gear.

Once you get a good feel for what omnis can do in these situations, and what you feel they might be lacking, that experience will give you a strong basis of comparison for trying other types of mics and mic techniques.  If exploring those different techniques is a big part of your motivation, then a set of mics with switchable polar patterns can be a great way to experiment with different configs without breaking the bank with expensive mics.  Of the mics I have that fit that description, I've gotten a lot of milage out of my ADK TLs.  Their four switchable patterns allow trying most every stereo mic'ing configuration including mid-side and blumlein.  There are other mics that fit that description as well of course.. it's just that the ADKs have worked very well for me and have been a very good value, both sound and experince-wise.  Keep in mind that most multi-pattern mics are large diaphram types so they are much larger and heavier.  You'll be open taping all the way, hauling more gear (preamp with phantom power required), and bringing a larger footprint to the situation.   But going that route, you can develop a feel for what works best you and your recording scenarios, before making costly investments in specific mics.  Even then you may choose to use your 4060 rig more often than not.  At least that's how I feel.

Hope that helps.

[faninor]

Thanks. I was thinking that I might still use the 4060s concurrently with larger directional mics but I hadn't really thought about running an open rig with only them. One area I want to focus on is local school bands. I haven't been to see any of the schools here perform yet but I have a feeling most of them don't perform in the greatest sounding rooms, where I expect that directional mics would probably be an asset. I'll have to give some thought to microphones with switchable polar pattern, hmmmm.

[matahaka]

Just posting a link for the Stereo Zoom Pdf, seeing how the previous links are no longer valid, in case someone like me pokes around here. 

http://www.rycote.com/images/uploads/The_Stereophonic_Zoom.pdf

[rjp]

Once you get a good feel for what omnis can do in these situations, and what you feel they might be lacking, that experience will give you a strong basis of comparison for trying other types of mics and mic techniques.  If exploring those different techniques is a big part of your motivation, then a set of mics with switchable polar patterns can be a great way to experiment with different configs without breaking the bank with expensive mics.  Of the mics I have that fit that description, I've gotten a lot of milage out of my ADK TLs.

Are the TLs discontinued? I don't see them listed on the ADK website. I'm saving my pennies for a multipattern LDC set, but I'm torn between going relatively low-budget with the AKG Perception 420, or shooting a bit higher with something like the AT4050 (about as expensive as I can consider). There are certainly arguments in favor of either - the two have comparable specs, and I've had great results with my Perception 170 set (cardioid SDCs). The Rode NT2-A is another candidate I'm considering.

As much as I'd like to get a set of C 414s, that's just too much of a budget-buster. 

[Gutbucket]

The ADK TL is discontinuted, but pops up in the yardsale occasionally. AT4050 is a nice and well respected mic, I'm not familiar with the AKG Perception line.

[jnorman34]

how about a little telemann?  i got to do a nice flute recital down in eugene at the U of O saturday night.  i ran an ORTF pair of KM140s with a pair of DPA 4090 flanks>lexicon U42s>thinkpad t410 running reaper.  video was shot with panasonic ZS7, edited and rendered at 720p in adobe premiere.  is there a way to embed the youtube video?

i would like your opinion on the audio, and would love some comments on how to improve video quality.  thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr3dg8oaNCs

[Gutbucket]

Sounds very good to me John, the image is quite nice.  Is all the ambience I hear naturally occuring from the room?  That wide and deep, open ambient quality is what I feel the omni flanks really nail for me.  I think sometimes they sort of exagerate that quality, in a good way, in that I'm sometimes suprised that the ambience sometimes sounds richer to me using them than it did live. I do hear a slight touch of brightness or sibilance that may be due to Youtube codec compression, or could simply be the inexpensive AT earbuds I have plugged directly into this machine at work where I'm listening. Where were the mics placed relative to the performer?

Very good performance as well from Ms Cardona, which always tends to help make recordings sound their best IME. 

I'm no expert on video, but I think it comes across quite nicely within the constraints of the existing room lighting.  That's a difficult dynamic range of light with the dark piano curves and the hot highlights on the flute and arms. I like the composition/framing with the piano and off-center performer placement and would only pan down ever so slightly to keep from cropping off the toes of her shoes. I'm planning on picking up a ZS7 or ZS10 myself based on the nice quality video I've seen from them.

Thanks for sharing your work.

[jnorman34]

gut bucket - thank you for the nice comments.  i am finding that the often harsh lighting at stage events is very problematic for my amateur video skills...

[guysonic]

Video made in bad lighting might be rescued using some of those special effects features, like making a film look to be from the early 1900's, or morphed to be colored in softened pastel colored images.   Some of new still-video cameras like the DMC-FZ100 www.sonicstudios.com/videomic.htm and newest GH2 seem to have many such effects available while recording. 

While I personally have not used in-camera video special effects. most are wise to consider real time modification with camera effects as risky if not first making some tests.  Still, maybe worth taking a chance if not intending to spend time editing a video of low importance, but might be made more viewable with effects to look immediately nicer 'right-out-of-the-camera.'

[jnorman34]

for the past couple of years, i have been running a 4-mic array since i often find myself in situations where i do not know in advance where i will be able to set up my mics, nor what a given venue sounds like in terms of natural ambience.  i use an ORTF pair of KM140s flanked on either side by a pair of DPA 4090s, all mounted on a single bar (omnis are spaced about 60cm)>lexicon U42s>thinkpad t410 (i7) runnning reaper.   that way, during post, i can select just the ORTF pair if i had to set up further back than i wished or if the hall was more ambient than i expected, or i can use just the pair of omnis if i have to set up closer than i liked, or if the hall had little natural reverb, or i can use a blend of the two pairs to control how much ambience, width or depth is in the final mix.

now someone over at gearslutz has named this setup the "boojum/jnorman array" (boojum (sandy noyes) is a friend of mine up in astoria, with whom i discussed this approach and who also uses a similar setup in his work).  there is a fun discussion of the approach here:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/592570-first-try-w-boojum-jnorman-array-2-pairs-1-bar.html

have any of you guys tried similar kinds of setups, and what have your experiences been?  if you are using 4 mics, what is the rest of your signal chain - preamps, power supplies, recorder, etc.  thanks.

[allan]

we ran 6 mics the other night for the local symphony, a pair of Audix somethings on stage far left and right, a pair of Rode NT5 XY on a short stand directly in front of the conductor, and a pair of KM184 DFC of the camera pit in the balcony. Ran everything to a digi 003 console + laptop. Sounded pretty good while monitoring. Anyone else running XY at the conductor?

[notlance]

For just about the same reasons you stated (new acoustic, new artists, no time to set up, no chance to move the mics during the performance, not sure how much "room" the artist wants in the recording) I often use a Double MS setup.  Like the "regular" MS, the DMS has a side facing figure-8 for the Side signal, but the Mid signal consists of a Front and Back cardioid mic.  So by recording three channels, Front, Back, and Side, you can have a front pair of virtual mics with any pattern separated by any angle.  It is also possible to derive 5 channels of surround information from these three mics.

For a recording mixed to two channels, in simple terms the image width is adjusted by the Mid/Side balance, and the ambiance is adjusted by the Front/Back balance.  When I use the DMS I tend to place it a bit closer to the performers than I would a MS or ORTF rig because the Back mic allows me to add lots of reverberation if I want.  Like I tell my clients, it's easy to add chaos, but removing it is difficult.  Since DMS is coincident, there is never any phase issues when mixing the signals.

As for my specific rig, I most often use a Sennheiser MKH-800 for the Side mic, and a Sennheiser MKH-800 Twin for the Front and Back channels.  Thus with 2 mics I can get the three channels I need, which makes for a compact setup for the live concerts often record, and the Sennheisers are very fine mics.  I've used other mics in a DMS configuration with fine results also.  I use DMS so much I've built a 3 channel snake, which it's just a 7 conductor mic cable with the appropriate connectors on each end.  This really speeds up and cleans up my setup.  My recorder is a Sound Devices 788T, and I use its internal pre-amps which I have found to be more than adequate.

[jnorman34]

not - i like your signal chain :-)
there are a few folks over at GS remote forum that run double MS, and similar hybrid setups like double ORTF (one facing forward and on backward).  do you ever visit the remote forum?

[Carrera2]

Somewhat related, I played in a concerto for two flutes and ran two rigs recently. I ran AKG 481s > 744T in ORTF above and behind the conductor and then ran a second rig clamped to an arm that was a Sennheiser ME66 (short shotgun) with an AKG 394 (blue line bi-directional) run in MS (>V3>Sony M10) pointed at the soloists. You can spot the mics in the video at http://www.vimeo.com/21141879 (the sound in the video clip is just from the little Flip my wife used, and yes, I'm the old guy with white hair). All that said, I haven't had much time to work on the audio, but as expected, the recordings are vastly different, but bring an opportunity to mix some interestingly different "perspectives." After tax season clears up and I have a little time to mess with the audio I'll post a sample or two.

[DigiGal]

Somewhat related, I played in a concerto for two flutes and ran two rigs recently. I ran AKG 481s > 744T in ORTF above and behind the conductor and then ran a second rig clamped to an arm that was a Sennheiser ME66 (short shotgun) with an AKG 394 (blue line bi-directional) run in MS (>V3>Sony M10) pointed at the soloists. You can spot the mics in the video at http://www.vimeo.com/21141879 (the sound in the video clip is just from the little Flip by wife used, and yes, I'm the old guy with white hair). All that said, I haven't had much time to work on the audio, but as expected, the recordings are vastly different, but bring an opportunity to mix some interestingly different "perspectives." After tax season clears up and I have a little time to mess with the audio I'll post a sample or two.

Thanks for the link, at first glance I thought it was Steve Jobs playing flute. 

Not classical but similarly, I just ran a Sennheiser ME66 for a mid using the figure 8 of my Shure VP88 for the side at Radio City Music Hall for Furthur.  I'm looking to pick up a CK94 for my AKG 391's, but haven't really seen anyone else using them.  How do you like the CK94?  The availability of the figure 8 caps from AKG for these was one of my reasons for getting the 391's.