Topic: Help a Brother decide - M10 Or R09HR?

[e.maynard]

I'll be using this for quiet acoustic stuff mainly with the built in mic's only.
Also, from time to time I'll use it's line in from a small PA feed.

I just sold my R-09 and I liked it, but the self noise was a bit much at times.
I know both of these (Sony PCM-M10 and Edirol R-09HR) are a step up, but if it was your money, which would you choose? And why?


Many thanks!

[Craig T]

If you're planning on using the built-in mics, stay away from the R-09HR.  The Sony PCM-M10 and even the much cheaper Tascam DR07 are much better options.

[e.maynard]

The R-09HR still has quite a bit of preamp noise?
The M10 sounded quieter on the sample page at: http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-noise.html#samples

But the DR07 sounded thin and nosier than my old R09.

Are those samples accurate generally?

[Craig T]

I've used the R09HR and DR07 to record music from the built-in mics.  The DR07 sounded more natural, and the difference was significant.  More noise?  Possibly, but I'll take a more natural sound with a higher noise floor every time.

[carpa]

I own a R09 HR and I'm satisfied with it. Never tried a Sony (I used to have two dat decks in the past and they worked great), so I can't compare.
As far I as I've read, I don't think M10 allows firmware upgrades, which Edirol does; I think that if it's true it can get to be a limitation nowadays.
As for the built-in mics, if most people here say that Sony is better this must be true; anyway be sure that built-in mics will definitely be the way you will use the deck. There are lots of good little mics (expecially with an external preamp) which are very easy and light to bring and would dramatically improve the quality of the recording, no matter what deck you're using.
c

[e.maynard]

There are lots of good little mics (expecially with an external preamp) which are very easy and light to bring and would dramatically improve the quality of the recording, no matter what deck you're using.
c

What's a good step up from the internals using external mics/preamp.
Without going ape, wheres a good place to start.

[Craig T]

What's a good step up from the internals using external mics/preamp.
Without going ape, wheres a good place to start.

Church Audio CA14 (cardiod or omni) + Church Audio ST9100 preamp.  Info in Retail Space.

[fmaderjr]

Church Audio CA14 (cardiod or omni) + Church Audio ST9100 preamp.  Info in Retail Space.

Incredible bang for the buck. Can produce recordings as good as much more costly sytems.

[willndmb]

Church Audio CA14 (cardiod or omni) + Church Audio ST9100 preamp.  Info in Retail Space.

Incredible bang for the buck. Can produce recordings as good as much more costly sytems.

i like the spro stuff

i see you have both sp and ca mics
have you compared the two?

[Belexes]

I have CA-14 card/omni and AT 853 (SP-CMC-4).  The AT's are comparable to the CA-14's except that the CA's cost a lot less and the AT's would benefit from Chris Church's 4.7k mod.

I am keeping the AT's as I like having the choice of hyper and subcard caps.

[fmaderjr]

I like both CA-14's and SP 853's equally. Like having the changeable caps with the 853's though. Used my 853 sub card caps for the first time recently (after owning them for years) and got a wonderful recording.

[tekdroid]

... but if it was your money, which would you choose? And why?

You must be familiar with the design of the unit by now, but I just can't stomach it to be honest. I much prefer Sony's design for reasons too boring to get into here, but I must mention the Sony has a recording dial and far more logical design to me. Sony's designers take usability (and I suspect, materials) much more seriously.

Quite apart from any technical aspects (battery life, sound, etc) I'd just have a hard time paying the same money for the Edirol. (I own 2 Roland products though, so please understand I don't hate the company).

There are a few features the Edirol has the Sony hasn't, but so has the Sony, and I don't regard them as being too different, feature-wise.

I expect Roland / Edirol to drop their price in coming weeks/ months as the PCM-M10 takes a hold of the market and the word of its goodness spread. I think Sony are doing an incredible job with this model and (barring any great show-stoppers) they will do extremely well against the competition here.

As the price of the Edirol drops (again, only my prediction), it may be the better choice, but only then IMO. I see a big value disparity between this unit and the Sony currently selling at the same price.

[digifish_music]

... as the PCM-M10 takes a hold of the market and the word of its goodness spread.

I was happy to see Sony included Micro SD on the unit. Finally! they are getting the message people avoid their products because of their proprietary card format (although it is there too, as it must be).

The battery life is a clear winner tho.

PS: I have an R09HR and use the line in for recording ambient stuff using a Sound Devices MixPre (external mic preamp). Although I have on occasion used the internal mics.

Tourists swimming at lake Eacham

You may like this comparison I did between Edirol units.

http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/articles/edirol_recorder_mics.htm

digifish

[spyder9]

R09HR all day long.  I like the Tascan DR-1 also, which I use.  Big brother to the DR07.  Can't go wrong with the Tascams.  Nice warm, smooth sound.  Low noise floor too.  I found the Sonys to be too bright for my ears.  Just my 2 cents.   

[dogmusic]

R09HR all day long.  I like the Tascan DR-1 also, which I use.  Big brother to the DR07.  Can't go wrong with the Tascams.  Nice warm, smooth sound.  Low noise floor too.  I found the Sonys to be too bright for my ears.  Just my 2 cents.   

I would second the motion on smooth Tascam sound.

The DR-07 is now the true bargain on the market. Great mics, small size, easy controls. $144.00.

[e.maynard]

I would second the motion on smooth Tascam sound.

The DR-07 is now the true bargain on the market. Great mics, small size, easy controls. $144.00.

Tascam.... smooth sound? Not to sound like a kook here but I have to say I've listened to the samples on wingfield audio's site http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-noise.html#samples and the noise floor combined with the spitty high end is awful. Warm & smooth is not at all what I would describe it as.

The Zoom H2 sample is warm and far smoother in that (DR-07) price range.

At least that's what their samples represent.

[acidjack]

I have some M10 questions of my own since it appears that through "user error" I may have destroyed the screen on my present R-09HR.

The biggest issue to me seems to be that you cannot lock the "rec" knob, even in "LOCK" mode, correct?  I would think that is a major issue, even if you're not doing low-profile work since if you reach down to pick the thing up and check it, and hit that wheel, your recording could be screwed. Is your only option putting it in a carrying case and hoping for the best (which adds bulk)?

Personally I love the layout of the R-09HR - the giant REC button, the way that the level adjustments can be locked in HOLD mode... I find it all very intuitive and easy to use in the dark, especially if you cover the buttons you don't want getting hit with a little electrical tape.  A REC knob, though, you can't do that with. 

I keep feeling like I should buy the "latest new thing" if I have to lay down cash for a new deck (though I am holding out hope that maybe my R-09HR isn't really dead... ).  On the other hand, other than that it looks better and has longer battery life, I guess I don't really need the Sony unless it is (i) appreciably smaller and (ii) sounds noticeably better. I've seen some anecdotal comments on here, but it sounds like the jury may still be out on (ii) and on (i), sunjan's sizeeasy in the M10 thread seems to indicate that the M10 and the -9HR are basically identical in size. 
Thoughts?

[Belexes]

I keep feeling like I should buy the "latest new thing" if I have to lay down cash for a new deck (though I am holding out hope that maybe my R-09HR isn't really dead... ).  On the other hand, other than that it looks better and has longer battery life, I guess I don't really need the Sony unless it is (i) appreciably smaller and (ii) sounds noticeably better. I've seen some anecdotal comments on here, but it sounds like the jury may still be out on (ii) and on (i), sunjan's sizeeasy in the M10 thread seems to indicate that the M10 and the -9HR are basically identical in size. 
Thoughts?

I am with you.  Those with the HR should just keep it in your gear bag for now.  I love mine figure Roland will bring out another R-09 in a year or two to peak my curiosity.

[acidjack]

I keep feeling like I should buy the "latest new thing" if I have to lay down cash for a new deck (though I am holding out hope that maybe my R-09HR isn't really dead... ).  On the other hand, other than that it looks better and has longer battery life, I guess I don't really need the Sony unless it is (i) appreciably smaller and (ii) sounds noticeably better. I've seen some anecdotal comments on here, but it sounds like the jury may still be out on (ii) and on (i), sunjan's sizeeasy in the M10 thread seems to indicate that the M10 and the -9HR are basically identical in size. 
Thoughts?

I am with you.  Those with the HR should just keep it in your gear bag for now.  I love mine figure Roland will bring out another R-09 in a year or two to peak my curiosity.

Thanks.  I think that's how I'll go. It's going to suck having to buy the exact same piece of gear a second time, but I really don't see any reason to abandon the R-09HR, especially since they're now selling for $299 also.  I also feel like the inability to lock the REC knob on the M10 could be a major issue in even non-lowpro situations. I've been borrowing a PMD660 for the past few shows while I await word from the repair guy on the R-09HR, and the rec knob on that thing is kind of a nightmare.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

... but if it was your money, which would you choose? And why?

You must be familiar with the design of the unit by now, but I just can't stomach it to be honest. I much prefer Sony's design for reasons too boring to get into here, but I must mention the Sony has a recording dial and far more logical design to me. Sony's designers take usability (and I suspect, materials) much more seriously.

So your very first post here was about sony products... and it looks like all your posts here are about sony products.   What's up with that?

[tekdroid]

So your very first post here was about sony products... and it looks like all your posts here are about sony products.   What's up with that?

Uhh, I own and actually LIKE Sony products (and I come from years of MiniDisc/Hi-MD use) and feel I can talk about them freely without being persecuted?

[fmaderjr]

I also feel like the inability to lock the REC knob on the M10 could be a major issue in even non-lowpro situations.

As as been discussed in other threads, this is not an issue at all. That knob is not going to move accidentally. May even be a benefit-you can lock everything else and still adjust your levels without having to take the lock off.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

So your very first post here was about sony products... and it looks like all your posts here are about sony products.   What's up with that?

Uhh, I own and actually LIKE Sony products (and I come from years of MiniDisc/Hi-MD use) and feel I can talk about them freely without being persecuted?

Yeah, but I just looked and you have *ONLY* posted about Sony products.  EVERY post.

Yes, I know they're your local friendly mega global consumer electronics corporation based in Tokyo.  What's not to love about that?

Many of us own cool products we really like, but our posts at TS don't *all* center around a single vendor.

You don't talk about music, you don't talk about recording, you don't talk about mics, or pre-amps...

Just Sony gear.

Some of us like certain products a lot, but still manage to post about other stuff.  It is unusual, even for this site.  I can't recall anyone ever pushing a particular vendor so hard here.   Especially a giant corporation.   *Nobody* here is into just recorders... They recognize the importantance of mics, pre-amps, and especially whatever it is they choose to record.

So, naturally, one wonders whether you have some connection with them, their distributors, or their products.    Any such association should be disclosed.  We've all heard about the people who are paid or otherwise compensated for pushing product....  If it quacks like a duck....

[tekdroid]

We've all heard about the people who are paid or otherwise compensated for pushing product....  If it quacks like a duck....

Wow Freelunch, way to exercise that paranoia. I have been active on what used to be the minidisc.org for several years. I have spoken fairly on the benefits and disadvantages of the format. As I do here. I have never pushed nor sold any specific product nor do I have any loose (or otherwise) retail associations - I don't even work in retail and if I worked for Sony I'd love to be working on their manuals, thanks. But then again, I don't give a crap what you think, nor do I feel I have to answer to the paranoid.

Some people who know me on minidisc.org are here, too. I will speak about what I know and won't be bullied by the likes of you, thanks. I don't live on the board, and I have my mic and pre-amp needs taken care of. Why should I be discussing them? Sony have released a great new recorder which is shaking up the competition in the price range and I can't discuss this without your permission? I will speak about what I like and have first-hand knowledge of and - again - won't be bullied by the likes of you nor take suggestions about what I should be posting about.

Sigh. Back to the topic...

[mloewen]

I also feel like the inability to lock the REC knob on the M10 could be a major issue in even non-lowpro situations.

As as been discussed in other threads, this is not an issue at all. That knob is not going to move accidentally. May even be a benefit-you can lock everything else and still adjust your levels without having to take the lock off.

I agree I have used in low profile situations and level being adjustable was advantage. I don't see an issue with it being accidentally bumped with the design. It has a guard over it.   

[udovdh]

I agree I have used in low profile situations and level being adjustable was advantage.

Do not adjust the levels in a `low profile` situation.
You didn't know the venue well enough, or your gear, and now you are going to expose your gear and/or ruin the recording even more.
We are recording 24-bits and you still feel the urge to fiddle with the levels?
Please do some tests before you start using the gear.
Compare levels with your old gear.
Test in front of the stereo.
Make notes after gigs about the position in the room, the headroom (dBFS) etc.

And yes, I like the HR. But I never used the M10.
I guess they are both good, but it might depend on waht you do and what you need.

[Cheesecadet]

I agree I have used in low profile situations and level being adjustable was advantage.

Do not adjust the levels in a `low profile` situation.
You didn't know the venue well enough, or your gear, and now you are going to expose your gear and/or ruin the recording even more.
We are recording 24-bits and you still feel the urge to fiddle with the levels?
Please do some tests before you start using the gear.
Compare levels with your old gear.
Test in front of the stereo.
Make notes after gigs about the position in the room, the headroom (dBFS) etc.

And yes, I like the HR. But I never used the M10.
I guess they are both good, but it might depend on waht you do and what you need.

I adjust levels all the time in lopro situations.  As long as you're smart nothing should be exposed and you should be able to do anything you need to with your eyes closed...except for seeing your adjusted levels of course.

To each their own...

[earmonger]

Stealthing just doesn't have to be as stealthy as it was back in the day. Everyone else at the gig is texting on their iPhone or taking a digital video, and your Edirol/Sony is just one more lit-up LED. 

I've been taking the M10 to theoretically lopro shows in a camera case (Lowepro--interesting name...) on a belt, and setting the level during pre-show music or opening act with it in my hand, and no one looks twice. (Good case for this, by the way--Ridge30. Battery box goes in case pocket, thin little remote in and out of the case's microSD front compartment. Case's top stays open and you can look down to see if the red clipping light goes on.)

Putting it in a (tighter) jeans pocket does risk accidentally changing the mic sensitivity and Auto/Manual levels switches on the back, and I do wish Sony had made them lock-able--or at least horizontal rather than vertical. Have to use tape for that.  The knob is pretty well guarded. I do wish it somehow had more gradations--and that they could be accessed from a remote.

For built-in mics as the OP wanted, the Sony just whups the Edirol R09, so unless they were vastly improved in the 09HR, I'd go Sony.

And I can vouch for Tekdroid, definitely not a Sony shill, from other forums I regularly read under other logins. Try a simple Google search before trying to discredit someone very knowledgeable. The PCM-M10 does not need hype--with a few shortcomings, it IS that good.



 

[udovdh]

Still: we have 24 bits. 16++ effectively.
Set the stuff. Forget.

If we have a red light it went wrong already...

[unclelouie]

B&H photo video is packaging the M10 with a nice firm-shell case that will help protect the rec. level from accidentally moving. It's too bulky for stealth, but great for a gear bag. If you need to carry it in a pocket, I agree with earmonger - just tape the rec. level down. 

I agree that the internal mics are excellent. They totally blow away the R-09HR/H2/D-07/etc. They're pleasantly sensitive too.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Stealthing just doesn't have to be as stealthy as it was back in the day. Everyone else at the gig is texting on their iPhone or taking a digital video, and your Edirol/Sony is just one more lit-up LED.

Perhaps... just maybe... Not everyone attends the same events you do?

[earmonger]

I'm in a major American city and go to rock and jazz clubs, theaters, arena gigs, outdoor shows (including a big hip-hop event with serious pat-down security) and more. Bag checks, wanding, etc., waved on through with a little rectangular gadget in a camera case.

In London, I just recorded a church choir and organ at a Sunday morning service.

Obviously I use small clip-on mics and I'm not waving the thing around all the time. But an occasional glance at an LED is not going to alert security the way that it did when no one had cell phones and digital cameras.

Or of course it could just be my sweet innocent face .