Topic: getting back into taping after a break

[newplanet7]

Marantz a/d's are good.
I'd go stock 661 as mentioned. I was wondering how well it would sound stock being that I have a Marantz 660 where the pres had to be modded.

[fmaderjr]

I own a stock 661 and love it, although I've never tried the other two.  As an all-in-one recorder, the  661 is fantastic.  It has decent battery life with AAs, is super easy to operate in the field, is relatively small and light for field recording, has a low noise floor, and has yielded me some nice recordings when I've taped with my mics directly into it.  You can check out some of them on LMA:

http://www.archive.org/details/tlg2010-01-30.ccm4.flac16

http://www.archive.org/details/elmwood2010-01-30.ccm4.flac16

http://www.archive.org/details/bd2009-11-16.ccm4.flac16

http://www.archive.org/details/gpn2009-11-16.ccm4.flac16

I have read posts by several others who love the stock 661 including Digi-Gal and no posts by anyone who got one and did did not like the sound.

Many of the early adopters got it modded just because of the stock 660's bad reputation or there would probably more posts about the stock units.

[newplanet7]

yep.
Well put.

[datbrad]

Marantz a/d's are good.
I'd go stock 661 as mentioned. I was wondering how well it would sound stock being that I have a Marantz 660 where the pres had to be modded.

I bought my 661 almost a year ago right out of the gate with the Oade warm mod for 2 reasons. First, the stock unit's best SNR spec for mic in through the XLRs is only 65db, and the XLR line in is only 85db, which is not even as good as a stock 16bit SBM-1 going RCA line in.

Second, I like the sound of FET input chips over the bipolar transistors commonly used in today's modern flash recorders. FETs make the WMOD 661 favor the tone of the old DAT recorders of the '90s.

The SNR specs of the bipolar chips Doug puts in the Concert Mod 661 are down to 125db, and the specs of the FETs he uses in the WMOD 661 are down to 115db.

I really had a hard time buying the 661 stock since it has published line in specs that are not even maximized at 16 bits with 85db SNR, so with a stock unit XLR line in, you are only using 14.7 bits of the 24 bits being allocated.

I would suggest that if you choose a 661 and are determined to start out stock, at least buy one from Doug so that later, you or a subsequent owner can always send it back for one of the modifications.

[stevetoney]

I'm not familiar with the sonosax design, but you should be aware that the 661 requires a balanced signal input, in case you're planning on keeping the sax to use in front of the 661.  Both of my Oade pre-amps have unbalanced outputs, so I couldn't use the 661 XLRs without getting lots of noise.  Some people thought that the 1/8 inch line in should work for me, but I still got lots of noise, again I assume because I was supplying an unbalanced signal.  That doesn't make any sense to me, but since I have an ADC and only used the 661 as a bitbucket, I never bothered to try and figure it out. 

[jackmf]

I really had a hard time buying the 661 stock since it has published line in specs that are not even maximized at 16 bits with 85db SNR, so with a stock unit XLR line in, you are only using 14.7 bits of the 24 bits being allocated.

[/quote]

Brad, I don't understand this comment. Are you saying that when I make a line in recording with the unit set to 24-bit, I'm only using 14.7 bits but if I had the unit Oade modded, I would be then using more of the 24?

[datbrad]

I really had a hard time buying the 661 stock since it has published line in specs that are not even maximized at 16 bits with 85db SNR, so with a stock unit XLR line in, you are only using 14.7 bits of the 24 bits being allocated.

Brad, I don't understand this comment. Are you saying that when I make a line in recording with the unit set to 24-bit, I'm only using 14.7 bits but if I had the unit Oade modded, I would be then using more of the 24?
[/quote]

You can find much more detailed descriptions of how PCM works by searching this forum, but I will try to simplify. With LPCM, each 6db of dynamic range (the ratio between recorded signal over the noise floor) takes one bit to capture. This means that 16bit PCM A/Ds are theoretically capable of capturing 96db dynamic range, and 24bit PCM is theoretically capable of capturing 144db of dynamic range.

The reason I say "theoretically" is because if the analog source signal feeding into the A/D has an analog noise floor higher than these levels, the actual dynamic range recorded is effectively reduced by the analog noise.

So, if you record an anlog source with only 85db of dynamic range, at 6db per bit, you can do the math to see that the effective bits of dynamic range are 14.7.

The specs of the stock 661 as published means that the unit does not actually achieve even 16 bits of effective dynamic range. This is because the noise of the analog input signal path in the stock unit reduces what it effectively can do, regardless of the bit depth.

The increased SNR of the chips Doug uses on the XLR inputs audibly increases the SNR of the 661 overall, which I have based on my own listening tests of posted sources, so the results are only based on my subjective opinion, just to be clear.

I have never seen a measurement showing how much the improvement is with the mods, but even if the improvement is only 15 to 20db, at least it ends up exceeding 16bit dynamic range. If you are seeking to not alter the tone of the stock unit, you probably would want to stick with the concert mod, since the stock unit comes with bipolar chips and Doug upgrades with a higher quality chip, but the same type. If you are looking for a more vintage quality, go with the FET sound of the warm mod.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Wow! What a great idea! Ive never used that output on the Sonosax before. Would I take any quality hit on using the 1/8" output instead of the xlr outs? If not then I think Im getting the M10!

Keep in mind that the m10 is still new and has not yet been proven sound-wise running line-in.  There are a lot of people talking about how great the internal mics sound (bfd!) but we have yet to have a good comp with a pre-amp in front.  We also don't know how the line-in overloads with a hot signal.  We do know that it cannot take a pro-level signal, and it isn't clear what is 'too hot'.

The r09 and r09hr have been well tested and comps have been posted that compare it to the v3's built-in a/d.  We also know that if you turn the gain down too far on the r09 and r09hr, they will chop the waveform, even though it is not clipping.  That has been known for a long time, but it took quite a while before people accepted it.

I've been curious about the 661.  Though as others have mentioned, the specs on paper are pretty cruddy.  I wonder what the specs are after Oade mods it?  Using the specs of the chips Oade installs is not valid (that's microtrack math!).  It'd be nice to get a v3 a/d comp against the 661.

The reports that the 661 can't take an unbalanced signal without introducing noise are disturbing..   Wonder what's up with that?  I imagine Doug knows.  Pretty much all of the "cellphone interference" posts I've seen on this board were from 660 owners. Maybe a coincidence..

I have yet to find a "stand alone" recorder with internal pre-amps that has the transparency and soundstage of the v3 (or similar).  Even the 7xx.  Though it takes good playback to hear it.

[acidjack]

^^^ FWIW I have run DPA 4021>Littlebox>M10 numerous times with fine results.  I generally just left the M10 gain at 5 and adjusted levels on the pre.  Line input sounds nice and clean to me.  Though I grant that (1) despite the favorable comp done on here by Todd R, the Littlebox is obviously not a V3 and (2) I didn't have anything to compare it to, other than that it sounds pretty much the same to me as running 4021>R-44.  But again, the internal pre of the R-44 isn't a V3, either.

[datbrad]

Wow! What a great idea! Ive never used that output on the Sonosax before. Would I take any quality hit on using the 1/8" output instead of the xlr outs? If not then I think Im getting the M10!

Keep in mind that the m10 is still new and has not yet been proven sound-wise running line-in.  There are a lot of people talking about how great the internal mics sound (bfd!) but we have yet to have a good comp with a pre-amp in front.  We also don't know how the line-in overloads with a hot signal.  We do know that it cannot take a pro-level signal, and it isn't clear what is 'too hot'.

The r09 and r09hr have been well tested and comps have been posted that compare it to the v3's built-in a/d.  We also know that if you turn the gain down too far on the r09 and r09hr, they will chop the waveform, even though it is not clipping.  That has been known for a long time, but it took quite a while before people accepted it.

I've been curious about the 661.  Though as others have mentioned, the specs on paper are pretty cruddy.  I wonder what the specs are after Oade mods it?  Using the specs of the chips Oade installs is not valid (that's microtrack math!).  It'd be nice to get a v3 a/d comp against the 661.

The reports that the 661 can't take an unbalanced signal without introducing noise are disturbing..   Wonder what's up with that?  I imagine Doug knows.  Pretty much all of the "cellphone interference" posts I've seen on this board were from 660 owners. Maybe a coincidence..

I have yet to find a "stand alone" recorder with internal pre-amps that has the transparency and soundstage of the v3 (or similar).  Even the 7xx.  Though it takes good playback to hear it.

I agree that you cannot directly infer the overall SNR improvement with modded 661s simply by the improvement in the spec for the input opamps. I have done several A/B comparisons with kingkita who runs 480s into a V3, when our mics were together on the same stand, and we both agree that the WMOD 661 that I have, running line in from my external SD MP-1 preamps, is comparable in terms of clarity, noise floor, and overall quality with the V3. What is clearest in terms of differences is the warmer tone on the WMOD 661.

I will have to ask Doug next time I talk to him what the overall SNR for line and mic through the XLRs are for each type of his mods and report back. I am sure he has measured stock against each of the 3 mods he does for the 661.

I have made SBDs unbalanced line in through the XLRs several times, using a pair of M-XLR to F-RCA adapters on the recorder, and made great recordings without any audible noise issues.

Hope this helps.

[su6oxone]

The increased SNR of the chips Doug uses on the XLR inputs audibly increases the SNR of the 661 overall, which I have based on my own listening tests of posted sources, so the results are only based on my subjective opinion, just to be clear.

Which A/B comparisons exactly did you base this conclusion on?  If you're comparing different sources in different venues with different mics and so forth, that wouldn't really be anything worth basing any conclusions on.  I've used the stock 661 for multiple shows (mics connected directly to XLR mic-in with phantom) with peaks at or even below -20dB and even after normalizing to 0dB the noise floor is remarkably low, comparable to the 702. 

Now, I can see how you might subjectively prefer the sound of your modded 661 (versus 'subjectively' believing the SNR to be higher) but your repeated disparaging remarks about the stock 661 are puzzling to say the least.  I know you love the Oade brothers and their mods, but no need to trash the stock 661 purportedly based on its specs.  Just sayin.' 

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I have done several A/B comparisons with kingkita who runs 480s into a V3, when our mics were together on the same stand, and we both agree that the WMOD 661 that I have, running line in from my external SD MP-1 preamps, is comparable in terms of clarity, noise floor, and overall quality with the V3.

Cool.   Line-in performance is critical to me - as much as I might like to run without a pre-amp, I don't expect it will happen anytime soon..  I'd like to find an a/d equivalent or better than the 7xx.  The r09 is not equivalent, but it is surprisingly good.  And as I've mentioned many times before, it is surprising that the r09 has been preferred here in blind comps to the v3's a/d (which is quieter and cleaner).  So as much as I like the v3 as a pre, I'm not so keen on it as an a/d.

I left out an important qualifier in my previous post - the differences I'm referring to would be most noticeable when recording something with a 3d soundstage.  A bunch of horns, strings, bluegrass, etc.  So on-stage or stage lip, and not through a PA.  And the good playback is also critical - something that can image depth, outside the speakers, etc.  The trumpet in the far back row may be the loudest sound on the recording, but does it still sound like it's in back?  How precisely are the individual components of the drum kit imaged?   How much of that remains when things get really loud? 

Sometimes these subjective impressions require dozens and dozens of recordings in familiar venues, etc, before the opinion is definitive.  So for me it is definitive (external pre-amps can sound better than the 7xx standalone), but still subjective.

So I don't think I can definitively compare gear for the cases I am most interested in if the recording is of a PA.

I have made SBDs unbalanced line in through the XLRs several times, using a pair of M-XLR to F-RCA adapters on the recorder, and made great recordings without any audible noise issues.

Good to hear.  I wonder what was up with those reports I read?

[datbrad]

The increased SNR of the chips Doug uses on the XLR inputs audibly increases the SNR of the 661 overall, which I have based on my own listening tests of posted sources, so the results are only based on my subjective opinion, just to be clear.

Which A/B comparisons exactly did you base this conclusion on?  If you're comparing different sources in different venues with different mics and so forth, that wouldn't really be anything worth basing any conclusions on.  I've used the stock 661 for multiple shows (mics connected directly to XLR mic-in with phantom) with peaks at or even below -20dB and even after normalizing to 0dB the noise floor is remarkably low, comparable to the 702. 

Now, I can see how you might subjectively prefer the sound of your modded 661 (versus 'subjectively' believing the SNR to be higher) but your repeated disparaging remarks about the stock 661 are puzzling to say the least.  I know you love the Oade brothers and their mods, but no need to trash the stock 661 purportedly based on its specs.  Just sayin.' 

Dude, I know you are proud of your stock unit, and good for you. That is what taping is all about. It's supposed to be for what the taper's ear likes, not anyone else. I agree that listening to different sources from different venues and mics is not as solid as comparisons where all variables are the same except the control, stock vs. modded 661, but I still came to the same conclusions with my ears. I have been taping for 26 years, so my old ears are probably not as good as your way younger ears are. I was clear that my views were subjective, so if you know me personally, you know how valid my opinions are, and if not, take it or leave it.

[su6oxone]

I agree that listening to different sources from different venues and mics is not as solid as comparisons where all variables are the same except the control, stock vs. modded 661, but I still came to the same conclusions with my ears.

 

[runonce]

Hi Tapers,
I am getting back into taping after taking a break for the past 4 years. Ive been taping shows for the better part of 20 years or so before going into "semi-retirement" 4 years ago. My rig consists of Schoeps CCM4's > Sonosax SX-M2 > MicroTrack 24/96 CF Recorder. I also have a pair of Sonic Studios DSM mics and a Sony PCM-M1 Dat recorder.  Ive noticed a whole bunch of nifty new solid state recorders that have come out over the past 4 years and Im seriously considering getting a new recorder and maybe a new mic pre for the CCM4's. I used to be a fairly hardcore fob stealth taper and liked the fact that I could stuff my entire rig down my pants and get it into any show. However now Im not sure how much stealth taping I really want to be doing anymore and so Im thinking about maybe getting a slightly larger recorder. I will probably be mainly recording friends bands and shows that allow taping as it is simply easier. (Yes im getting kind of old and tired! and stealth taping is somewhat of a young mans game and even a team sport to a certain extent) So....the reason for this post is to get some comments and recommendations from some of you. I love my CCM4's and so that is the starting point for any new rig I may get. I am familiar with the Sound Devices decks but dont want to spend that much on a new recorder right now. With that in mind what are some recommendations for recorders and/or mic pres for CCM4's these days? Thanks for your thoughts.
Jim

Since you are giving up stealthing...are you certain you need to limit yourself to battery powered gear? "Friends band" = AC Power

2 rackspaces can make a nice rig. Lots of nice Pre/AD combos.

And you could probably still just use the Microtrack as a bit bucket. (assuming its a proven device for that task)

Sounds like you already have a nice portable rig for the occasions you cant get AC power.

I use a dbx396 tube preamp...built in 24/96 AD. Not sure I'd truly "recommend" it...I love it. But I have a feeling thats more about my taste - and I've only compared it to a handful of others.  (Im also a bit foggy about the powering needs of your mics.)