Topic: Noob question, choice of a recorder : Roland R-05, Tascam Dr-2D or Zoom H2 ?

[Trangsene]

Hello,

My first post here.
I'm searching for a good not too expensive solution to record live performance and I'm very puzzled.
My first choice was the Zoom H2. The built-in quality looks very poor but I hear some recordings with the internal mics and found them really good.

For better qulity I'm really hesitating with the Tascam DR-2D and the Roland R-05.
The Tascam seems interesting for being to record 2 files at the same time to avoid peeks. I didn't understand if it makes battery life shorter or not. Is it good enough for 2 hours recording in dual mode ?
The Roland seems quite easy to use, the "Rehearsal" button seems handy to adjust level of recording and the buttons at the back of the recorder, very pratical to make some adjustments without having to use the menus on the screen.
I'm also ready to buy an external mic to have better results.

If someone could give me some advice to choose one of these it would be very nice.
Thanks in advance.

[jbell]

I would get a sony pcm m10!  Great battery life and very reliable

[Trangsene]

I should have specified I've looked at the Sony which looks great but it is above my budget !

[jbell]

With the recorders you have listed I would save up some more cash and get an M10.  $229 at B&H

[darby]

With the recorders you have listed I would save up some more cash and get an M10.  $229 at B&H

I agree... I did buy a DR-2d for the 4 channel features, but it crapped out after the first use
I should be receiving the replacement this week, so I really can't comment much on it other than the crappy battery life compared to the M10

[flintstone]

Also consider the Olympus LS-7, about $169 delivered from Datavision
http://www.datavis.com/cgi-bin/product.cgi?prrfnbr=586409

The LS-7 has excellent build quality, very long battery life, a reasonably quiet preamp (R-05 a little better in this regard), and no more bass roll-off when using the built-in mics.

[Will_S]

The battery life of the DR2D is not as good as the Sony M10, but the two hours you require is no problem - with the latest firmware I feel confident about getting 4:30 per charge out of NiMH in good condition.  The dual mode is very handy for safety, or if you cwn also get a line feed from a mixer etc for a 4 track recording.

[earmonger]

Are you in the US, where you can get the PCM-M10 from B&H as above? Or in Europe, where others have suggested the R-05 is the affordable choice. There's a very thorough thread on the R-05 here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=140726.0

[Trangsene]

Are you in the US, where you can get the PCM-M10 from B&H as above? Or in Europe, where others have suggested the R-05 is the affordable choice. There's a very thorough thread on the R-05 here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=140726.0

Thanks for your answers.
I'm in Europe.
I've found the Tascam DR-2D at a special price 220$ with the shipping costs from US.
In France the Roland R-05 is around 255$ and the Sony PCM-M10 470$ !

I've read the topic about the Roland but it's a little too technical for me 

I wish I could find more tests like this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52efPmB6ECA
I don't care if the test is not technically well done, it allows me to hear the difference with a same source recorded with internal mics, and for me the Zoom H2, in this video, seems to gives the best result (more detailed sound).

I hope I'll have even better with a more expensive recorder ! 

[techgui]

I have a DR-2d, and I'm very happy with it.  The Sony has better battery life, but the Tascam has much more flexibility.  the Tascam has cards rather than omni's, so better stereo separation.  Also, you can record both from internal mic's and external mic or sound board.  I'm getting more than 4 hrs from rechargeables.

[tailschao]

I thought it was quite well established that the Zoom H2 has the best internal microphone performance of all recorders in a similar price range (including the M10, as far as I know).

If you use an external microphone into the Zoom H2 Microphone input, the quality is poor because for some reason the built in pre-amps when using the Mic In are poor. They perform fine when using the internal mics, but not when using mic in.

However, if you get an external mic and external preamp and run line-in into the H2, there's no problem. I've been using that setup for 3 years, I'm totally happy with it.

There is a lot of Zoom hate on these boards (and a lot of Sony M10 worship). The build quality of the Zoom H1 is terrible - the H2 is absolutely fine.

If you're not going to get an external mic straight away, then get an H2 and use the internals while you save up money for an external mic and external pre-amp. If you will get a recorder and external mic now (with no external pre-amp) then get one of the others - don't use an external mic with the H2 without an external pre-amp also. If you will get a recorder, external mics and external pre-amp now then get any recorder you like. But if you are planning on using internal mics, I'd get an H2.

[Trangsene]

Maybe you're the wisest tailschao, after all I'm completly new at this and I think it will be better to make my education with the Zoom H2 for a start instead of dreaming right now at expensive stuff 

Thanks again for your answers

[jamroom]

I use external mics (CA11 / CA14) and CA9100 pre. I replaced my Edirol R09 with the Roland R05 and I'm very happy with it and it's 24/96 capability. If you have any specific non-internal mic questions, ask away.

I'm in the UK and bought mine from Dolphin Music for the equivalent of €214. I have seen it cheaper on the web. Perhaps it's a French tax thing?

[nl]

On the French version of thomann.de the Zoom H2 is €166, the Roland R-05 €199 and the Tascam DR-2d €282. I think there is free shipping on orders of €199 and over, otherwise it is a flat €10. My French sucks so don't take my word for it...

I don't have any experience with the Tascam but I do own the H2 and R-05. The H2 really is a piece of crap. OK, the internals are decent at moderate volume but any set of eternal mics will be way better. The line in is too sensitive, the mic in is too noisy and to make matters worse, both of these jacks fail easily.

The Roland R-05 is better quality, the only thing I don't like about it is the layout of the buttons. I did try the internal mics once and I thought it sounded decent enough but for any serious taping you really should invest in some good mics. Battery life is awesome, in my unscientific test I got something like 16 hours on rechargeables.

My Marantz PMD620 is still my go to recorder though, especially since it can power all of mics just fine without a battery box (Sennheiser MKE-2 with 4.7K mod, CA-11 cards/omni's, CAFS), even at the super loud metal shows I tape.

[tom.lac]

Hi,

I had the same questions about which first recorder to buy.
Finally, as I am in France too, I bought a R-05 at about 190€ (via internet)
I hope I could help you

Cheers

Tom

[Trangsene]

LOL I think I will never make it !
In order to avoid using a pre-amp, the Marantz PMD620 was sounding interesting, but after a quick research I've seen several times it's not a recorder for music, more for the voice.

Back to square 1. It's very difficult to choose because I can't hear the difference between 2 recorders in the same conditions otherwise I could take the decision by myself 
The Zoom seemed good for a beginner like me but I must admit it's hard for me to invest money in something that seems so "plastic" 
Is there some other recorders good for music which avoid having to use pre-amp like the Marantz? I imagine it's far more expensive.

And I have another question for experienced tapers, maybe it will help me to choose, how do you adjust the level of recording if there isn't a first part ?
I've understood it's better to avoid auto-level. If you have to adjust level isn't it more pratictal to have buttons instead of menus for quick corrections?
The Tascam DR-2D records 2 files, one at a lower level to avoid clipping, I thought maybe it was a good thing for a beginner.

[nl]

In order to avoid using a pre-amp, the Marantz PMD620 was sounding interesting, but after a quick research I've seen several times it's not a recorder for music, more for the voice.

What?? The pre in the PMD620 isn't great but it is just fine for amplified shows. The internal mics do suck, that is true but if you run some Church Audio or Sound Professional mics straight into mic in, it sound just fine to me. If you tape acoustic or unamplified music, definitely get a separate pre like Church Audio CA-9100 or 9200.

That said, the PMD620 has been out for a long time and it still is quite expensive so I wouldn't necessarily recommend it now, unless you get a good deal on a used one. In Europe, I think your best bet is the R-05, unless you need the 4 track functionality of the Tascam.

[Trangsene]

Me again.

I'm still very puzzled adn not knowing which recorder to buy.

I've noticed you have sounds sample on thomann.de website ! Just what I wanted, to be able to compare recorders on the same basis.

I've decided to focus on the funk music sample and to compare how their internal mics sound for a start (I'll see for an external mic later), I hope it's relliable. The Tascam DR 2D and the OLYMPUS LS-11 sounds very metallic to me, the Edirol - R-09HR on the contrary sounds very muddy.

Finally, I think this ones have the best sound :

• MARANTZ PMD 620, sounds the best to me, on this particular sample, don't you think ?
• Zoom H4n
• SONY PCM-M10

The Zoom h4n seems to be a little bigger than the others, so less discreet to record a concert.
The Sony, acclaimed everywhere, sounds a little flat to me, but the button to adjust the record level seems very handy (you just have to turn it, not to press on +/- buttons).
If i've well understood you can adjust level recording on the Marantz only while recording ? Nl please can you confirm that ?

Finally  I'll maybe do my choice between the Marantz and the Sony that are both over my initial budget 

[nl]

If i've well understood you can adjust level recording on the Marantz only while recording ?

You can adjust the gain on the PMD620 in REC PAUSE and REC modes.

FYI, I think there is a PMD620 located in the Netherlands in the yard sale if you don't mind buying used. Will probably save you a bunch if you go that way.

[a_doubt]

Me again.

I'm still very puzzled adn not knowing which recorder to buy.

I've noticed you have sounds sample on thomann.de website ! Just what I wanted, to be able to compare recorders on the same basis.
(...)

Currently I'm looking for a new recorder to replace my MZ-RH 1 and I'd like to thank you for the link, those sound samples are a very good way to compare. Though I intend to use external mics, it's a comfortable way of experiencing what the internal mics of the different recorders are capable of.

What recorder did you buy in the end?

[Trangsene]

Finally I've found several recent good live recordings made by someone with a Roland R-05 and SP-CMC-8 with no-preamp.
So I've thrown all my theoretical researches away and decided to go for it, based on practical examples.
The R-05 is more in my budget (but not the mics !) and frankly the preamp stuff was painful for me.
I've just received the recorder, and I'm going to order the mics at Sound Professionals.
I hope I'll not be disappointed.

[a_doubt]

That's good to know, sometimes the practical examples are more convincing than reading specifications. I also lean towards buying the Roland R-05, it's also a budget question and it looks like the price/performance ratio is good.

And I also bought the SP-CMC-8 a few month ago, so it looks like we might use the same rig Though I also use a CA-9100 pre-amp, but also recorded mic-in in the past, but that was with my HiMD recorder, so I'm curious if it would work with the Roland R-05 as well. So please let us know how it worked, once you have taped with this combination.

[Trangsene]

By the way SP-CMC-8 can only be ordered at Sound Professionals I suppose ?
Somewhere in Europe would be easier for me 

[a_doubt]

I worried about that, too (I live in Germany), but ordering at Sound Professionals was easy, you can pay via PayPal and it took not long (I think about 2 weeks) until I got the parcel. I had to pay customs (but I already knew that) and had to pick up the package at the customs office, but other than that, very comfortable purchase.

You may check the Yard Sale here at TS, and maybe find someone in Europe selling their used SP-CMC-8, but I think most users are U.S. based.

[adrianf74]

By the way SP-CMC-8 can only be ordered at Sound Professionals I suppose ?
Somewhere in Europe would be easier for me 

Be cautious with the SP-CMC-8's -- I don't know if it's standard on the AT-943's but you'll want to make sure they're good at high SPLs.  I had the older SP-CMC-8 (AT-933/c which is a better sounding capsule to my ears) and it could overload (and did from time to time). 

For the money, you could easily get a package from Chris Church (Church Audio) with a CA-14 omni and a CA-14 card mic with battery box (if not a preamp) for the price of the SP-CMC-8's alone.  I'd sooner go that route (I've owned both mics and I much prefer the sound of the CA's to the SP's and I'm not alone in that regard).    I'll likely be selling my CA-14 omnis soon and maybe the preamp but that's another story.

[F.O.Bean]

I think the CA14S[CARDS/OMNIS] smoke the SP mics, but thats just IMO I cant wait for next summer so I can run a 2-3ft split for my newly acquired ca14 omnis

[vegeta_ban]

i don't understand the hate on the h2 here, i've used it as a backup for my "main gear", an oade concert mod r44, and have gotten good recordings from it. I just stick it on the t bar between my other mics and it works well. I've also used binaural mics with it and gotten good recordings.

[dallman]

i don't understand the hate on the h2 here, i've used it as a backup for my "main gear", an oade concert mod r44, and have gotten good recordings from it. I just stick it on the t bar between my other mics and it works well. I've also used binaural mics with it and gotten good recordings.

I wouldn't worry too much. If you like it, it is because it is a recorder capable of making excellent recordings. Similarly, there is a whole legion of people with MT2496's that love them, but no one talks about it as that is the recorder of choice for bashing (ok maybe a small legion, but still... ). So much of the differences we discuss and/or strive for are just nuances past the actual recording. That is part of the draw of the hobby. Get a good spot, don't dramatically screw up your settings, and you will get a great recording. Likewise, I have heard terrible recordings made with great gear.

[acidjack]

i don't understand the hate on the h2 here, i've used it as a backup for my "main gear", an oade concert mod r44, and have gotten good recordings from it. I just stick it on the t bar between my other mics and it works well. I've also used binaural mics with it and gotten good recordings.

I wouldn't worry too much. If you like it, it is because it is a recorder capable of making excellent recordings. Similarly, there is a whole legion of people with MT2496's that love them, but no one talks about it as that is the recorder of choice for bashing (ok maybe a small legion, but still... ). So much of the differences we discuss and/or strive for are just nuances past the actual recording. That is part of the draw of the hobby. Get a good spot, don't dramatically screw up your settings, and you will get a great recording. Likewise, I have heard terrible recordings made with great gear.

Also, the build quality of Zoom gear is crap.  Does it mean every single one breaks?  No.  Just like Tascam aka Trashcan, some percentage of the manufactured items work as intended (hey, not EVERY Chrysler made in the mid-80s-90s was a lemon).  But their reputation for reliability and quality is, er, not good, and their products aren't really cheaper than others that ARE reliable.

But the fact remains that some products have reputations for reliability and quality, and others don't.  Zooms are excellent for the casual person who wants an easy all-in-one thing to muck around with - like video guys who don't really care that much about audio and just want something easy.  But they're not made well, and not totally reliable - therefore, people who care about audio (i.e., tapers) avoid them for the most part.  The discussed use of having it as a backup... sure, why?  But I'd never use it for more than that.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Speaking of video and bashing Zoom, I have an anecdote about my last run-in with Zoom gear from a few weeks ago.  I was recording a band, getting a board feed and flying mics, and there was a woman there shooting video who I offered a patch out of my deck to.  She had a Zoom H4n which we initially had no problem setting up and getting levels on.  She goes off to shoot video and I stay busy with the audio.  With fresh batteries, the Zoom shut itself off within 20 minutes.  I turned it back on, hit record and it shut down again a few minutes later.  A half-hour later she came by to check on her recorder and I told her what happened.  Perplexed, she put another fresh set of batteries in the device, started it up, hit record and, sure enough, it burned through another set of batteries in less than 20 minutes.  Phantom wasn't on and we couldn't figure out why it was draining power so quickly.  Suffice to say, she was very happy that someone else had a good audio source and it strengthened my resolve not to buy gear that has a reputation for un-reliability.

[Ozpeter]

Maybe she needed a new battery charger...

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Had she been using rechargeable batteries, I'd be inclined to agree with you.  But, these were brand spankin' new Duracells.  She opened the pack and put them in right in front of me.