Topic: Recorder advice for an amateur noob on a tight budget

[sebastianF13]

Hello. I've searched through the forums and I've come to realize that recording live music is much more complicated than I originally imagined. Yet, since I really am an amateur that just wants to record 2-3 songs from concerts I attend, I'm looking into the simplest and cheapest solution for recording loud rock music. I have a digital camera (Canon Powershot G12) that records decent video, but the sound is terrible. I just need something better than that. Here are some examples of things I've recorded with the G12:
Open Air Shows
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK4bT3Kuxio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8BE2joqAhs
Indoor Shows
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf85BHVVm9A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSvZuig42w

Would a cheap recorder (I was thinking something like the Zoom H1 with a cheap external mic or H2 (or Tascam DR-05) with the internal mics) be an improvement on what my camera records (I don't need a top notch recording, just something I wouldn't feel embarrassed showing to my friends)? I have a budget of around $150-180 that I'm willing to spend.
Any input would be greatly appreciated
Thank you.

[earmonger]

Everyone complains about the build quality of the Zooms.

If you can, nudge the budget up to $229 and get the Sony PCM-M10.  It's built like a rock, very easy to use, even has a tripod mount hole.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638090-REG/Sony_PCM_M10_BLACK_PCM_M10_Portable_Audio_Recorder.html

Its internal mics will be an upgrade on your G12. Frankly  I don't know if they can handle the full fearsomeness of Slipknot, because heavy bass is the first thing to distort. They might, however, because they have a bass roll-off. Crank up your home stereo, max out the bass and put the PCM-M10 right up near it with Manual recording level and the knob set to just 1. See what kind of a recording you get.

For super boombastic concerts, you could get a little more serious without too much further expenditure. For about $120 total you could  get tiny clip-on mics--Sound Professionals BMC-2,

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-2

--and a 9V battery box from SoundProfessionals

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-8

or Microphone Madness
http://microphonemadness.com/products/mmclasbatfil.htm

and you would be thrilled to the gills with the sound you'll get.

[sebastianF13]

Thank you for your input. Having surfed trough most of the other threads, I understand that the PCM-M10 is ideal. But since I live in Greece, ordering one would take me completely off-budget. The average shipping fee is $50 and there's always the risk of it being held in customs and taxed based on its domestic value (over here the PCM-M10 goes for around 300 Euros ~ $420).

The thing is, that I have friends with "crappier" compact cameras whose videos have better sound than mine. Here's an example:

My friends 'budget' nikon camera (I don't remember the model)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUUI9zzN4NQ

My G12 (which is considered a top compact camera)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8BE2joqAhs

It's not the same song but it's from the same concert and we're standing next to each other.

Of course I'm not looking for something to equal my friends' camera sound, but something marginally better would satisfy.
I'm not looking to record whole shows, just a few songs to remember the concerts. That's also the reason I got the G12 and not an entry dSLR. I like to take a few shots and a couple of vids and then enter the mayhem (I mostly go to metal concerts). So what I'm basically after, is something that I could keep in my pocket (throughout the show) and only take it out when I'm filming a vid (Holding the camera in one hand and the recorder in the other). And if, in time, my financial situation takes an upturn, I'd consider buying a couple of mics (to hang around my neck probably) so as to be able to keep the recorder in my pocket throughout the concert.

After some searching I found a Tascam DR-05 for $120 (shipping included). From what I've come to understand (by searching through the forums), the DR-05 is slightly better than the DR-07 which seems to be highly regarded. Any thoughts?

Thank you again for taking the time to help a noob.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

The first "real" lesson I learned about Taping is don't go with cheap gear.  Save your money and do it right the first time. 

I went with a $20 homemade battery pack instead of the $50 DVD Battery everyone uses...  One fire, and a lost Sonic Youth show later, I bought a DVD Battery...  $20 wasted...

Spending $180 on a recorder that will NOT give you the results you want is a waste of $180.  Save $40 more and get the Sony... 

Terry

[sebastianF13]

Well, it seems to be unanimous that the Sony m10 is by far the best. The thing is that if I spend all my money on the Sony, I'll have none left for the concerts I wanna go to (leaving me home alone staring at my new recorder and dreaming about next year's concerts). If you guys really don't think there's a middle path (with a more affordable recorder), then I'll just have to suffer my G12's horrible audio. There's another couple of weeks before festival season starts. I'll ponder about what to do. In the meantime, all suggestions are welcome. And thank you again for taking the time to read and respond!

[earmonger]

The Sony really is a bargain here in the US but not in Europe. Take a look at threads on the Edirol R-05, which apparently is the more affordable choice in Europe. Or...don't you have any friends visiting the USA anytime soon?

[sebastianF13]

Thank you earmonger. I checked a few e-stores here in Greece and it seems that it's about the same price as the sony. The only affordable (for me) recorders for the time being, are the zoom H1 and H2 and the Tascam DR-05 and DR-07. I don't know what to do. Fingers crossed that some new work is gonna come my way and maybe I'll be able to afford the m10. It's just frustrating because bon jovi are coming (for the first and probably last time) on the 20th and I really had my heart set on recording a few songs from their show. If I manage not to buy a cheaper recorder by then, I'll probably be able to save up to afford the M10 for next year.

[TNJazz]

The cheaper the recorder, the worse the audio quality typically will be.  Just buy any of the ones you listed.  They will probably make a decent enough recording for your purposes.

Personally I'd pick the Tascam units over the Zoom, because I think Zoom is nothing more than cheap garbage, but that's just me.

[kylieshotpants]

Hi

I've got a Zoom H-1 and taped 18 shows with so far and am more than happy with the results, sure the build quality is rubbish, but get battery box and external mic and you won't get any problems.

I can see exactly were your coming from price wise-the Zoom creates a good entry point- reliable high quality recordings

[F.O.Bean]

Go w/ the Tascams over the Zoom's

[sebastianF13]

I found a Tascam DR-05 for around $135 in a tech-store. I'm gonna go to a couple of concerts this weekend, so I was thinking of picking it up on Friday and maybe returning it (if I'm not satisfied) on Monday.
I have a few questions on how to use it though and any help/advice would be valuable:

1)Where do I stand, speaker wise. Center stage (between them) or on one side (in front of them)? And also, at what distance? It's gonna take place on the same venue as this:
2)I'm going to be using the internal mics. Must I hold the recorder up, or could I just hang it around my neck? I was also thinking of wearing a wristband and tucking it there, so I could use both hands to hold the camera steady.
3)Do you guys have any tips on what settings to use? The thing I fear the most is the kick drum distortion. It's a (mostly rock) festival (Monster Magnet, Editors, Prodigy, Kyuss Lives, Floggin Molly) so it's gonna be loud.

If I like what I record I'll probably keep it. If not, I'm gonna order the sony from B&H and hope it gets through customs without incident!

[F.O.Bean]

I would not expect a decent recording using internals at a loud rock show. As always, YMMV

[sebastianF13]

I'm not expecting crystal sound. Just something better than the average camera's internal mic. I've pretty much made up my mind to get the Sony. I just want to get my feet a little wet with the Tascam (since it's gonna be my first time). I'd also get a battery box and some mics but I can't find the ones that were suggested here. Anyway, if you think you could offer any advice on how to get the optimal sound using the Tascam's 'crappy' internals, it would help a lot. Thank you.

[sebastianF13]

Ok, so I got the tascam dr-05. Any advice on how to use it?
What input level should I use?
Should I use Peak Reduction
Should I use Limiter?
Should I keep it in my breast pocket or maybe sew it on a hat?

Any input would be helpfull!

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Higher up the better. I run my mics in a hat.

Don't use auto anything.

Manually set your levels. When recording @ 24bit I set my levels to peak at about -6 db and boost in post if needed.

In my experience on-board mics sound pretty horrible. Start saving now for some externals. ...I'm warning you now...once you're hooked your $$$ will start evaporating.