Author Topic: Recorder advice for an amateur noob on a tight budget (Read 10802 times)

sebastianF13 · « **on:** June 22, 2011, 03:42:21 AM »

Hello. I've searched through the forums and I've come to realize that recording live music is much more complicated than I originally imagined. Yet, since I really am an amateur that just wants to record 2-3 songs from concerts I attend, I'm looking into the simplest and cheapest solution for recording loud rock music. I have a digital camera (Canon Powershot G12) that records decent video, but the sound is terrible. I just need something better than that. Here are some examples of things I've recorded with the G12:
Open Air Shows
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK4bT3Kuxio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8BE2joqAhs
Indoor Shows
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf85BHVVm9A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSvZuig42w

Would a cheap recorder (I was thinking something like the Zoom H1 with a cheap external mic or H2 (or Tascam DR-05) with the internal mics) be an improvement on what my camera records (I don't need a top notch recording, just something I wouldn't feel embarrassed showing to my friends)? I have a budget of around $150-180 that I'm willing to spend.
Any input would be greatly appreciated
Thank you.

earmonger · « **Reply #1 on:** June 23, 2011, 12:47:46 PM »

Everyone complains about the build quality of the Zooms.

If you can, nudge the budget up to $229 and get the Sony PCM-M10. It's built like a rock, very easy to use, even has a tripod mount hole.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638090-REG/Sony_PCM_M10_BLACK_PCM_M10_Portable_Audio_Recorder.html

Its internal mics will be an upgrade on your G12. Frankly I don't know if they can handle the full fearsomeness of Slipknot, because heavy bass is the first thing to distort. They might, however, because they have a bass roll-off. Crank up your home stereo, max out the bass and put the PCM-M10 right up near it with Manual recording level and the knob set to just 1. See what kind of a recording you get.

For super boombastic concerts, you could get a little more serious without too much further expenditure. For about $120 total you could get tiny clip-on mics--Sound Professionals BMC-2,

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-2

--and a 9V battery box from SoundProfessionals

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-8

or Microphone Madness
http://microphonemadness.com/products/mmclasbatfil.htm

and you would be thrilled to the gills with the sound you'll get.

sebastianF13 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 23, 2011, 03:02:56 PM »

Thank you for your input. Having surfed trough most of the other threads, I understand that the PCM-M10 is ideal. But since I live in Greece, ordering one would take me completely off-budget. The average shipping fee is $50 and there's always the risk of it being held in customs and taxed based on its domestic value (over here the PCM-M10 goes for around 300 Euros ~ $420).

The thing is, that I have friends with "crappier" compact cameras whose videos have better sound than mine. Here's an example:

My friends 'budget' nikon camera (I don't remember the model)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUUI9zzN4NQ

My G12 (which is considered a top compact camera)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8BE2joqAhs

It's not the same song but it's from the same concert and we're standing next to each other.

Of course I'm not looking for something to equal my friends' camera sound, but something marginally better would satisfy.
I'm not looking to record whole shows, just a few songs to remember the concerts. That's also the reason I got the G12 and not an entry dSLR. I like to take a few shots and a couple of vids and then enter the mayhem (I mostly go to metal concerts). So what I'm basically after, is something that I could keep in my pocket (throughout the show) and only take it out when I'm filming a vid (Holding the camera in one hand and the recorder in the other). And if, in time, my financial situation takes an upturn, I'd consider buying a couple of mics (to hang around my neck probably) so as to be able to keep the recorder in my pocket throughout the concert.

After some searching I found a Tascam DR-05 for $120 (shipping included). From what I've come to understand (by searching through the forums), the DR-05 is slightly better than the DR-07 which seems to be highly regarded. Any thoughts?

Thank you again for taking the time to help a noob.

twatts (pants are so over-rated...) · « **Reply #3 on:** June 23, 2011, 03:57:57 PM »

The first "real" lesson I learned about Taping is don't go with cheap gear. Save your money and do it right the first time.

I went with a $20 homemade battery pack instead of the $50 DVD Battery everyone uses... One fire, and a lost Sonic Youth show later, I bought a DVD Battery... $20 wasted...

Spending $180 on a recorder that will NOT give you the results you want is a waste of $180. Save $40 more and get the Sony...

Terry

sebastianF13 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 23, 2011, 05:24:47 PM »

Well, it seems to be unanimous that the Sony m10 is by far the best. The thing is that if I spend all my money on the Sony, I'll have none left for the concerts I wanna go to (leaving me home alone staring at my new recorder and dreaming about next year's concerts). If you guys really don't think there's a middle path (with a more affordable recorder), then I'll just have to suffer my G12's horrible audio. There's another couple of weeks before festival season starts. I'll ponder about what to do. In the meantime, all suggestions are welcome. And thank you again for taking the time to read and respond!

earmonger · « **Reply #5 on:** June 24, 2011, 12:14:15 AM »

The Sony really is a bargain here in the US but not in Europe. Take a look at threads on the Edirol R-05, which apparently is the more affordable choice in Europe. Or...don't you have any friends visiting the USA anytime soon?

sebastianF13 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 24, 2011, 05:21:27 AM »

Thank you earmonger. I checked a few e-stores here in Greece and it seems that it's about the same price as the sony. The only affordable (for me) recorders for the time being, are the zoom H1 and H2 and the Tascam DR-05 and DR-07. I don't know what to do. Fingers crossed that some new work is gonna come my way and maybe I'll be able to afford the m10. It's just frustrating because bon jovi are coming (for the first and probably last time) on the 20th and I really had my heart set on recording a few songs from their show. If I manage not to buy a cheaper recorder by then, I'll probably be able to save up to afford the M10 for next year.

TNJazz · « **Reply #7 on:** June 24, 2011, 09:01:26 AM »

The cheaper the recorder, the worse the audio quality typically will be. Just buy any of the ones you listed. They will probably make a decent enough recording for your purposes.

Personally I'd pick the Tascam units over the Zoom, because I think Zoom is nothing more than cheap garbage, but that's just me.

kylieshotpants · « **Reply #8 on:** June 24, 2011, 02:45:08 PM »

Hi

I've got a Zoom H-1 and taped 18 shows with so far and am more than happy with the results, sure the build quality is rubbish, but get battery box and external mic and you won't get any problems.

I can see exactly were your coming from price wise-the Zoom creates a good entry point- reliable high quality recordings

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #9 on:** June 24, 2011, 08:58:14 PM »

Go w/ the Tascams over the Zoom's

sebastianF13 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 28, 2011, 06:35:20 PM »

I found a Tascam DR-05 for around $135 in a tech-store. I'm gonna go to a couple of concerts this weekend, so I was thinking of picking it up on Friday and maybe returning it (if I'm not satisfied) on Monday.
I have a few questions on how to use it though and any help/advice would be valuable:

1)Where do I stand, speaker wise. Center stage (between them) or on one side (in front of them)? And also, at what distance? It's gonna take place on the same venue as this:

2)I'm going to be using the internal mics. Must I hold the recorder up, or could I just hang it around my neck? I was also thinking of wearing a wristband and tucking it there, so I could use both hands to hold the camera steady.
3)Do you guys have any tips on what settings to use? The thing I fear the most is the kick drum distortion. It's a (mostly rock) festival (Monster Magnet, Editors, Prodigy, Kyuss Lives, Floggin Molly) so it's gonna be loud.

If I like what I record I'll probably keep it. If not, I'm gonna order the sony from B&H and hope it gets through customs without incident!

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #11 on:** June 28, 2011, 08:10:03 PM »

I would not expect a decent recording using internals at a loud rock show. As always, YMMV

sebastianF13 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 28, 2011, 08:39:47 PM »

I'm not expecting crystal sound. Just something better than the average camera's internal mic. I've pretty much made up my mind to get the Sony. I just want to get my feet a little wet with the Tascam (since it's gonna be my first time). I'd also get a battery box and some mics but I can't find the ones that were suggested here. Anyway, if you think you could offer any advice on how to get the optimal sound using the Tascam's 'crappy' internals, it would help a lot. Thank you.

sebastianF13 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 30, 2011, 09:14:51 AM »

Ok, so I got the tascam dr-05. Any advice on how to use it?
What input level should I use?
Should I use Peak Reduction
Should I use Limiter?
Should I keep it in my breast pocket or maybe sew it on a hat?

Any input would be helpfull!

Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B) · « **Reply #14 on:** June 30, 2011, 11:02:43 AM »

Higher up the better. I run my mics in a hat.

Don't use auto anything.

Manually set your levels. When recording @ 24bit I set my levels to peak at about -6 db and boost in post if needed.

In my experience on-board mics sound pretty horrible. Start saving now for some externals.

...I'm warning you now...once you're hooked your $$$ will start evaporating.

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #15 on:** June 30, 2011, 05:15:57 PM »

Quote from: Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B) on June 30, 2011, 11:02:43 AM

In my experience on-board mics sound pretty horrible. Start saving now for some externals. ...I'm warning you now...once you're hooked your $$$ will start evaporating.

DavidNJ · « **Reply #16 on:** June 30, 2011, 07:10:33 PM »

I would probably use these in your situation, but it is probably out of your budget:

http://www.soundman.de/

sebastianF13 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 30, 2011, 08:01:04 PM »

I was actually kind of sold on earmonger's suggestions from SoundProfessionals and I'd already go ahead with the order if I could make sure that they would arrive in time. The concert has anonther 20 days before it's over and I doubt that either the sony m10 or the SoundProfessionals kit would arrive in Greece by then. That's why I'm taking a chance with the Tascam (because it was in-stock and at an affordable-though-much-more-than-it-would-have-cost-if-I-ordered-it-from-the-States price). Anyhoo, since you've all been very kind to grace me with your input and advice (of which I'm sure I'm gonna be needing more soon) I thought I'd give you an oportunity to laugh

at my first attempt to put together a noob recording get-up.

Firstly, here are my home made windscreens (I cut up a sponge and made holes. The red band is a velcro tape to keep em' in place) The store had the original windscreens at about $50 and I didn't think it was worth it. Right?

And here's the recorder-hat integration:

Basically I sew an old army sock (as a case )on the cap and used velcro tape to "latch" the front so it doesn't fall.

Not very stealthy I know!

The festival is taking place at a big park with lots of people so I don't think anyone's gonna single me out from the various 'freaks' that are gonna attend (it's a rock festival). And of course I'm not gonna go in wearing it.

Here's another question: It's gonna be a long festival. Around 8 hours. The 2gB card is good for about 2hrs of 48kHz 24bit wav recording or for 15hrs of 320kbps 44.1kHz Mp3 recording. I've read in the forum that I should choose WAV but I don't understand why. Would WAV give me better quality or is it just easier to tamper with later?

Thanks again

DavidNJ · « **Reply #18 on:** July 01, 2011, 05:13:20 AM »

I doubt it will be effective outside. You will need some sort of fur.

The is the Soundman solution:

achalsey · « **Reply #19 on:** July 01, 2011, 06:37:51 AM »

Quote from: sebastianF13 on June 30, 2011, 08:01:04 PM

Would WAV give me better quality or is it just easier to tamper with later?

Yes .wav is better quality than MP3, it doesn't make a difference in post editing. MP3 is a 'lossy' format meaning you lose some digital information that you wouldn't recording in .wav. Its a much larger file size so you won't get nearly as much recording space as MP3, but I would be very surprised if anyone here even entertained the idea of recording in MP3.

Also, some people might jump all over you for posting your hat techniques, but as a non-stealther that looks awesome. Definitely good job with the windscreens. My only opinion on possible improvement would be to wonder if sewing a piece of camo fabric over the whole thing (not just using the sock) might make it less conspicuous.

Though it brings up the question of how you'll be checking levels and recording time....

sebastianF13 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 02, 2011, 10:04:09 AM »

Ok! So I made my first recording!!! It's a definite improvement on what I got until now with the camera's internals.
Here's a sample

This is the video with the sound from canon's internal mics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vAPehJqOYc

And this is with Tascam's internals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgkEXPnw_Io

What I'm wandering now, is how I should proceed. I have another 5 days to return it. Should I do that and use another $150 to get the sony (would the sony's internals be such a great improvement over what I got with the tascam above?) or should I keep the Tascam and use the $150 to get a battery pack and a couple of mics from SoundProfessionals? (I only have $150 to spare)

achalsey · « **Reply #21 on:** July 02, 2011, 10:53:07 AM »

Sounds surprisingly good, but as a newbie my self and not at all wrapped up in the technical aspect of it all, I'd say keep the tascam and go with some church mics. Cards and BB for 140.00 US.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=141135.0

edit: just for reference for the Church mics here's my 16 bit Church source (though with his 9100 preamp) and a Schoeps source for the same spot:

http://www.archive.org/details/GPN2011-05-19.mk4v.flac16
http://www.archive.org/details/GPN2011-05-19.CA14.flac16

tay666 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 04, 2011, 01:26:02 AM »

I agree.
Keep the Tascam and work on getting some good external mics.
I've heard plenty of good recordings from Tascam equipment.

sebastianF13 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 04, 2011, 02:58:56 PM »

I made my second test last night and got mixed results
Here's what I got from Flogging Molly, an irish punk rock band (Small stage, front row between the woofers and the speaker stack) I'm not very happy with it
g12's internals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65fYl7i68aM
Tascam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgx08U4pxwk

And here's what I got from Prodigy, heavy on drum and bass techno (big stage, front row, again between the woofers and a huge stack of speakers)
g 12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJVHRbLz75U
tascam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoDDeegwJAk

Any ideas on why the more organic show gave me a worse recording than the electronic show?

Quote from: achalsey on July 02, 2011, 10:53:07 AM

edit: just for reference for the Church mics here's my 16 bit Church source (though with his 9100 preamp) and a Schoeps source for the same spot:

http://www.archive.org/details/GPN2011-05-19.mk4v.flac16
http://www.archive.org/details/GPN2011-05-19.CA14.flac16

I really liked your recordings. How far (or near) from the stage do you record? Was it an open or a closed venue?

Also, I'd like to know your opinion on the SoundProfessionals combo that earmonger suggested. They have really great rates for intenational shipping and are a little cheaper than your suggestion (Church). Is there a noticeable difference between the two?

Since you and tay666 both suggest keeping the Tascam and getting externals I'm now at a loss on what to choose.

Again, thank you very much for taking the time to check out what I've done and for giving me your advice.

jbou · « **Reply #24 on:** July 04, 2011, 03:54:48 PM »

Quote from: sebastianF13 on July 04, 2011, 02:58:56 PM

Any ideas on why the more organic show gave me a worse recording than the electronic show?

It could be your location more than anything. From your first sample it seems that you were further back compared to the new samples where your were right in the front. Usually being right in the front isn't where it sounds the best.

achalsey · « **Reply #25 on:** July 04, 2011, 05:21:09 PM »

To be fair, my Grace recording I linked was a pretty prefect setup, so isn't a totally fair example. It was a nice outdoor stage, totally open and we were pretty much in the sweet spot (if not a little far back). Centered, maybe 30 feet back or so, mics about 7 ft in the air.

I don't know anything about the SP mics but you can always check out archive to see if you like them over the Church stuff. A few with the SP battery box into tascams

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=SP-BMC-2%20AND%20collection%3Aetree

sebastianF13 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 04, 2011, 05:42:06 PM »

Quote from: JBou on July 04, 2011, 03:54:48 PM

Quote from: sebastianF13 on July 04, 2011, 02:58:56 PM
Any ideas on why the more organic show gave me a worse recording than the electronic show?

It could be your location more than anything. From your first sample it seems that you were further back compared to the new samples where your were right in the front. Usually being right in the front isn't where it sounds the best.

That's exactly what I would have figured. Except that in both instances I'm located in front row (a little left from the center). And the prodigy track (which is super-satisfactory) was recorded in the Main Stage with the huge amps and stacks. The Flogging Molly track was from a much smaller stage. Wouldn't it be more logical if it was the other way around? (meaning the prodigy song to be distorted and the Molly track satisfactory?)

tay666 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 04, 2011, 09:34:44 PM »

I don't think your Molly recording is all that distorted.
I am assuming that the stacks at the Molly stage were on the far sides, or up above you.
Which means you weren't getting any of the sound from the stacks
Most of the instruments you are picking up are the monitor feeds that the band listen to.
The main purpose of the monitors is so that the band can hear what they are playing.
They are nice and amplified, so they can also be heard by those in the front rows.
But the vocals are usually sent to an in-ear monitor as most singers are all over the stage.
The problem is, in your location, the vocals are muddy at best. As the vocals aren't usually prominent in the musician's monitors. They want to hear the instrument 'they' are playing.

With the other group. With it being bigger, and more bombastic, I'll bet they had some stacks towards the back of the stage as well. So those in the front, on the floor, in the pit, etc, can hear everything.

This is one of the reasons, that a lot of people think opening acts get a crappier mix than the headliners at shows. Sure, sometimes that is true. But a lot of the time, it is because the opening act doesn't have the amount of gear as the headliner. So with only part of the amps or stacks, they can't fill the room with sound like the headliner can.

I've been to shows where you couldn't hear any vocals at all for the opening act if you were in the pit.
There just weren't any sources for the sound to come from.
10 or 12 rows back you could hear them just fine. But close to the stage, there was nothing at all.

sebastianF13 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 05, 2011, 03:50:23 AM »

Quote from: tay666 on July 04, 2011, 09:34:44 PM

I don't think your Molly recording is all that distorted.
I am assuming that the stacks at the Molly stage were on the far sides, or up above you.
Which means you weren't getting any of the sound from the stacks
Most of the instruments you are picking up are the monitor feeds that the band listen to.
The main purpose of the monitors is so that the band can hear what they are playing.
They are nice and amplified, so they can also be heard by those in the front rows.
But the vocals are usually sent to an in-ear monitor as most singers are all over the stage.
The problem is, in your location, the vocals are muddy at best. As the vocals aren't usually prominent in the musician's monitors. They want to hear the instrument 'they' are playing.

With the other group. With it being bigger, and more bombastic, I'll bet they had some stacks towards the back of the stage as well. So those in the front, on the floor, in the pit, etc, can hear everything.

This is one of the reasons, that a lot of people think opening acts get a crappier mix than the headliners at shows. Sure, sometimes that is true. But a lot of the time, it is because the opening act doesn't have the amount of gear as the headliner. So with only part of the amps or stacks, they can't fill the room with sound like the headliner can.

I've been to shows where you couldn't hear any vocals at all for the opening act if you were in the pit.
There just weren't any sources for the sound to come from.
10 or 12 rows back you could hear them just fine. But close to the stage, there was nothing at all.

Thank you very much tay666! This actually explains a lot. The only trouble is that it kind of makes me have to choose whether I want to get a good audio recording or just enjoy the show from the front row. And there's also the problem that 10-15 rows back, it's much harder to remain still (for filming a video) when everyone around is going crazy. Tough call.
Anyway, tonight is Judas Priest/Whitesnake night. It's gonna be interesting (recording-wise)

tay666 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 05, 2011, 07:18:59 PM »

That is the choice that all tapers have to make.
Sacrifice some fun for the good of the recording.
Or sacrifice the recording and have some fun.

Not all shows will present the problem you ran into.
Just remember. Generally, your recording will only be as good as what you are actually hearing yourself.
So, if you can't hear the vocal. More than likely, your gear isn't going to pick them up either,
There are exceptions. But better to just assume your gear won't get it, if your ears don't.

newplanet7 · « **Reply #30 on:** July 05, 2011, 09:09:18 PM »

I will second everything tay666 said.
Also I think both of those recordings above are a huge improvement over the camera audio.
Location is the exact problem in those situations as tay666 pointed out.
I noticed in the video that there was security./staff in front of you. Did they not notice the silliness protruding from your hat? Or did you not use the hat?

sebastianF13 · « **Reply #31 on:** July 06, 2011, 05:50:09 AM »

Quote from: newplanet7 on July 05, 2011, 09:09:18 PM

I noticed in the video that there was security./staff in front of you. Did they not notice the silliness protruding from your hat? Or did you not use the hat?

I thought I mentioned earlier that the hat's purpose was not to be stealthy but to just free my hands from having to hold the recorder in the air. I'm pretty sure that the security guys wouldn't know what a recording device looks like (not many people use one around here. I wouldn't be surpised if I were the only one). They also don't mind the photo cameras. But if they spot someone with an actual videocam they go mental! They're very silly that way.

Anyway, I'm trying to decide on a pair of mics right now.

Here's what I got from a concert I went to last night. I think it's the best recording yet! (and as always it's from a front row location)

Judas Priest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpk1QjGCwDk

Whitesnake
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDQUCLIPDfE

nl · « **Reply #32 on:** July 06, 2011, 06:05:54 AM »

Quote from: sebastianF13 on July 06, 2011, 05:50:09 AM

(not many people use one around here. I wouldn't be surpised if I were the only one).

I don't doubt that Greece could use more tapers but I know of at least one in Athens who sometimes posts his tapes on dimeadozen.org. One of his recordings is on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/details/ktb2010-05-01.flacf.

earmonger · « **Reply #33 on:** July 08, 2011, 03:44:22 PM »

For what it's worth, I'm about to get some Church Audio mics and I expect they will be an upgrade over the SoundPros.

The Sound Pros are tiny (the size of pencil erasers) and stealthy and good, and since you were on a budget I think they are among the very cheapest tolerable mics.

But since you aren't that worried about stealth, you might be better off getting the Church Audio mics and battery box to start with. The Live Music Archive usually lists the equipment used for the recordings--make your own comparisons.

But there's always something more expensive and better. Welcome to taping.

sebastianF13 · « **Reply #34 on:** July 09, 2011, 02:11:47 PM »

Thank you Earmonger. Yes the Church mics have been suggested before. I'm on the fence because they're cards, and since I move around a lot there might be a lot of phasing. But they are highly recommended and I'm seriously considering them now.

But hey, I've also been busy.
Here's what I got last night from a spot far away from the stage. It's the first time I didn't need to have the input all the way down! Any thoughts?
Roger Waters the Wall
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL93FB6A4EA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8MnjEy2caY

earmonger · « **Reply #35 on:** July 10, 2011, 01:46:56 AM »

Church makes omnis, too. I prefer omnis myself.

rastasean · « **Reply #36 on:** July 10, 2011, 06:55:47 PM »

Naiant Studios also makes omni mics: http://naiant.com/naiant/microphones.html