Topic: SD 702 vs everything else...

[jnorman34]

i am considering a new 2 track field recorder for chamber music recording.   i am looking at a used sound devices 702, but wondered what you guys think.  is there any unit that is a tad more affordable that can give comparable results?  i have used a SD 744 before, and it was a wonderfully crafted piece of gear.  i have also used a tascam DR100, which actually was not bad at all, especially considering its price.  i would like to invest in something that will give me solid professional preamps and top-end recordings.  i am currently using Km140s>fast track ultra>thinkpad T410 i7 running reaper, and would like to find a more portable solution for 2-track work.   i would appreciate any thoughts, comments or recommendations you guys might have  - thanks.

[Will_S]

If you don't mind something that looks and feels like a Fisher Price toy (at least compared to the SD),  the preamps  in the Fostex FR2LE are actually quite good.  I think willndmb has one in the Yard Sale. 

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I used the same model fostex that Will notes and for situations where you are using it line-in or in non-nature/louder environments, I think you would be surprised at how well it performs. It does have a low noise floor, but it has less gain than the 7 series IIRC, and it's not the same build caliber as the SD machines. (and it does sort of look like a Fisher Price toy)

I think an option to consider as well, while not an all in one, would be the SD USBPre2. Its essentially a 702 but without a recorder (mate a rca spdif/optical with it). Paired with a Sony D50 (optical receiving) would bring you in around $1k total and essentially replicate a 702 as the pre2's ADC is the same chip and the preamps mimic the 788's design. What it doesn't replicate is the power-failover options that the 7 series have.

I guess the great question is; "will this be used for mission critical work where you need something every single time from demanding environments" If so, I don't think there is much question that the 7 series are the answer, but outside of that, I think you can start to scale back to the usbpre2 or the fostex. ymmv, best of luck.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I think an option to consider as well, while not an all in one, would be the SD USBPre2. Its essentially a 702 but without a recorder (mate a rca spdif/optical with it). Paired with a Sony D50 (optical receiving) would bring you in around $1k total and essentially replicate a 702 as the pre2's ADC is the same chip and the preamps mimic the 788's design. What it doesn't replicate is the power-failover options that the 7 series have.

Of course there is so much more to a/d performance than the chip.  Generally, the chip is the easy part - building the high quality power supply is where it gets really tricky.   I miss my 722's a/d when used as a line-in device.  It'd be interesting to hear some comps of the 7xx a/d against the USBPre2.

I'd also be considering an m10 with some kind of pre-amp.  Though I have yet to hear a good comp of the m10 a/d vs. the 7xx.

The v3 would be near the top of my list for the detail, soundstage, etc.  Also, it gives the option of a second digital recorder as a backup.  A lot of folks love the DAV BG1 for chamber work, myself included.  The big bg1 limitation for me is the a/c power requirement, and the size.   They can be found used for around $600-$650, and that's really a steal.

In my experience, chamber music often requires a lot of gain (depending on mics).  Few all-in-ones can provide that gain cleanly.  I always preferred running my 722 with an external pre-amp.  Would v3 or bg1 > m10 sound better than straight into the 7xx?  Probably.

[notlance]

I believe you need to answer two questions:

1. Are you getting paid to make these recordings?

2. How often do you plan to use the portable recorder?

If I was getting paid to record, I would get a 702 or one of its competitors, such as the Nagra LB and others of that class.

If I was going to use the recorder more than a couple times a month, I'd get a 702 or one of its peers.

Just my opinion.

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Few all-in-ones can provide that gain cleanly.  I always preferred running my 722 with an external pre-amp.  Would v3 or bg1 > m10 sound better than straight into the 7xx?  maybe.

fyp.

I thought the D50 had a decent ADC and I wouldn't kick it out of bed, but I picked the 7 series in that comp in under a few minutes and the general consensus was the same. My complaint was detail, I just didn't hear the same level of detail out of the Sony that I got from the 722. I doubt Sony went back to the drawing board for the M10. So I think between great gain with a good ADC versus good gain with a great ADC. That might sound better to the person recording, it might not, but I don't think it's a clear victory either way.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I thought the D50 had a decent ADC and I wouldn't kick it out of bed, but I picked the 7 series in that comp in under a few minutes and the general consensus was the same. My complaint was detail, I just didn't hear the same level of detail out of the Sony that I got from the 722. I doubt Sony went back to the drawing board for the M10. So I think between great gain with a good ADC versus good gain with a great ADC. That might sound better to the person recording, it might not, but I don't think it's a clear victory either way.

I don't think I heard that comp, and I didn't find it when I just searched.  I'd probably remember it if I saw it..

My recollection is the v3 a/d vs. 722 were not *that* different (I certainly comp'd them enough!).  Though I preferred the 722, and even the r09..

I'm hoping to hear more mytek vs. 7xx comps in the future, and m10.  I'm close to getting an m10.

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I don't think I heard that comp, and I didn't find it when I just searched.  I'd probably remember it if I saw it..

johnw did one with a sonosax, and it was either a D50 or an M10 he used. I'd have to hunt for the link though, last summer I think it was Phish at Alpine Valley.

I'm hoping to hear more mytek vs. 7xx comps in the future, and m10.  I'm close to getting an m10.

I concur, I'm looking forward to the V3/mytek one that tedyun is going to do in the future.

[sparkey]

i am considering a new 2 track field recorder for chamber music recording.   i am looking at a used sound devices 702, but wondered what you guys think.  is there any unit that is a tad more affordable that can give comparable results?  i have used a SD 744 before, and it was a wonderfully crafted piece of gear.  i have also used a tascam DR100, which actually was not bad at all, especially considering its price.  i would like to invest in something that will give me solid professional preamps and top-end recordings.  i am currently using Km140s>fast track ultra>thinkpad T410 i7 running reaper, and would like to find a more portable solution for 2-track work.   i would appreciate any thoughts, comments or recommendations you guys might have  - thanks.

You could find a used MP-2, those sound nice with the 140's, or a V2, and pick up a little Sony bit bucket.

[jnorman34]

so are you guys saying a dedicated preamp, like SDPre or sonosax, etc, plus a D50 or M10 is a better way to go than a 702?
also, what about the marantz 661?  anywhere comparable to 702?

[willndmb]

so are you guys saying a dedicated preamp, like SDPre or sonosax, etc, plus a D50 or M10 is a better way to go than a 702?
also, what about the marantz 661?  anywhere comparable to 702?

i think they are saying it is a cheaper way to get good recording, not that they are going to be better or worse
imo it depends on the mics too
personally i don't care for the sd boxes unless they are paired with dpa mics - clearly others find them to fit well with other mic brands too

i do have a fr-2le for sale as stated above, if you are interested lmk
imo it has nice low noise pres and it def is easy to use with great power options
the meter will not put you in a trace like the sd box though 

[johnw]

I don't think I heard that comp, and I didn't find it when I just searched.  I'd probably remember it if I saw it..

johnw did one with a sonosax, and it was either a D50 or an M10 he used. I'd have to hunt for the link though, last summer I think it was Phish at Alpine Valley.

I'm hoping to hear more mytek vs. 7xx comps in the future, and m10.  I'm close to getting an m10.

I concur, I'm looking forward to the V3/mytek one that tedyun is going to do in the future.

FWIW it was an M10. The test was a bit complicated by the fact that nobody knows what unity is on the M10 although most users are accepting 3-4 which is around what I had the M10 on. Also I never figured out if the 1/8" out on the Sonosax is the same gain as XLR out. Either way, the 2 sources sounded pretty similar to me. I'll eventually buy another 7xx, but the M10 works fine on my budget for now.

[AB52]

There is some logic to getting a Sound Devices USBPRE2 and a portable recorder.   Not only will it sound great, but if later on, you move on to a Sound Devices or other more expensive field recorder, you will have the USBPRE2 for a couple of extra channels, as well as the portable recorder as a backup.
My 2 cents.
Best,
AB
P.S.  I met your friend Boojum in Oregon last Thursday.

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There is some logic to getting a Sound Devices USBPRE2 and a portable recorder.   Not only will it sound great, but if later on, you move on to a Sound Devices or other more expensive field recorder, you will have the USBPRE2 for a couple of extra channels, as well as the portable recorder as a backup.

Thats basically what I've done (a 7 series 2ch and the usbpre2 to link up for the occasional 4ch action).

so are you guys saying a dedicated preamp, like SDPre or sonosax, etc, plus a D50 or M10 is a better way to go than a 702?
also, what about the marantz 661?  anywhere comparable to 702?

i think they are saying it is a cheaper way to get good recording, not that they are going to be better or worse
imo it depends on the mics too

I agree. What the 7 series still has going for it is it sounds great, but mostly is it's hellishly reliable in a series of adverse conditions. As notlance and I were mentioning, it's a question of how mission critical you're stuff is; if it is, get the 7 series, otherwise you can get something like the usbpre2 which will effectively sound just like the 7 series, but at a reduction in cost. There are other options as we've pointed out that could be cheaper then that, but the first question is how critical is what you're doing.

FWIW it was an M10. The test was a bit complicated by the fact that nobody knows what unity is on the M10 although most users are accepting 3-4 which is around what I had the M10 on. Also I never figured out if the 1/8" out on the Sonosax is the same gain as XLR out. Either way, the 2 sources sounded pretty similar to me. I'll eventually buy another 7xx, but the M10 works fine on my budget for now.

The sax's 3.5mm out should be 6db cooler, the overload point is at any rate which makes sense on the balanced/unbalanced element.

[dennisrtyler]

If you are gonna be running mics>recorder...I know I'll get some smirks for this one, but I, without a doubt, enjoy the sound from my Oade Concert Mod 661 more than I did from my 702. No doubt the 702 is a step above in build quality/features but I always found the preamps to be a little "thin". The Oade 661 has better low-end and a killer soundstage compared to the 702. Some people just can't see past the price difference, immediately dismissing the 661 cause it's 1/3 of the price. Based on sound alone, I'll take 3 661s over 1 702 ANYDAY.

[F.O.Bean]

I ran MBHO Hypers>722
                          >LB>M10

and you folks said that my LB>M10 sounded as good, if not better, than my 722 source

[jnorman34]

AB52 - yeah, the booj is a hoot, isnt he?  we are now famous for the "boojum/jnorman array" that somebody coined over at gearslutz...

[Brian Skalinder]

For those recommending the 702 for paid work and/or mission critical live recording:  a single recorder -- no matter how good -- won't cut it, IMO.  You need redundancy, with at least a backup recorder, if not full set of recording gear.

If you have the cash, my vote is for the 702.  While I miss my 722, I have to say for those on a budget the Fostex FR-2LE offers tremendous value (i.e. outstanding performance for the price.)

Edit to add:  I've used my FR-2LE in un-amplified environments multiple times, mainly smallish (8-15 persn) vocal groups .  I find the FR-2LE has sufficient gain for my needs, and it's noise floor is well below the noise floor of the recording environment (like churches).

[sparkey]

The preamp in my 722 sounds excellent.  The V2 and Nbox sound better, IMO.  The MP-2 sounds very similar to my 722, methinks.

so are you guys saying a dedicated preamp, like SDPre or sonosax, etc, plus a D50 or M10 is a better way to go than a 702?
also, what about the marantz 661?  anywhere comparable to 702?

[Napo]

If you are gonna be running mics>recorder...I know I'll get some smirks for this one, but I, without a doubt, enjoy the sound from my Oade Concert Mod 661 more than I did from my 702. No doubt the 702 is a step above in build quality/features but I always found the preamps to be a little "thin". The Oade 661 has better low-end and a killer soundstage compared to the 702. Some people just can't see past the price difference, immediately dismissing the 661 cause it's 1/3 of the price. Based on sound alone, I'll take 3 661s over 1 702 ANYDAY.

Interesting point, you made.

How about gain? 722 can go up tp +60db, I belive. Can the Mod 611 match that?

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How about gain? 722 can go up tp +60db, I belive. Can the Mod 611 match that?

70db in normal gain mode.

[dennisrtyler]

If you are gonna be running mics>recorder...I know I'll get some smirks for this one, but I, without a doubt, enjoy the sound from my Oade Concert Mod 661 more than I did from my 702. No doubt the 702 is a step above in build quality/features but I always found the preamps to be a little "thin". The Oade 661 has better low-end and a killer soundstage compared to the 702. Some people just can't see past the price difference, immediately dismissing the 661 cause it's 1/3 of the price. Based on sound alone, I'll take 3 661s over 1 702 ANYDAY.

Interesting point, you made.

How about gain? 722 can go up tp +60db, I belive. Can the Mod 611 match that?

Not entirely sure, to be honest. Shoot Doug an email. He can mod them for high gain, if needed.

[Napo]

Excuse me for highjacking the thread.

1. Any difference in performance between a 702 and a 722 apart from the hard disk recording?
2. Recording directly to an Hard Disk improves the recording over recording on a Card?

T+, Mauro

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Excuse me for highjacking the thread.

1. Any difference in performance between a 702 and a 722 apart from the hard disk recording?
2. Recording directly to an Hard Disk improves the recording over recording on a Card?

1) No. They both have CF card slots, but only the 722 has a hard drive.
2) The resulting files are the same, the advantage is in storage space (the stock drive was 40gb I think, and many who upgrade put jumbo drives in), and redundancy/safety as you can record to both the CF card and hard drive at the same time (so if one fails, the other keeps going).

[notlance]

Excuse me for highjacking the thread.

1. Any difference in performance between a 702 and a 722 apart from the hard disk recording?
2. Recording directly to an Hard Disk improves the recording over recording on a Card?

1) No. They both have CF card slots, but only the 722 has a hard drive.
2) The resulting files are the same, the advantage is in storage space (the stock drive was 40gb I think, and many who upgrade put jumbo drives in), and redundancy/safety as you can record to both the CF card and hard drive at the same time (so if one fails, the other keeps going).

The new 722s come with a 160 gig SATA hard drive.  Not too long ago, the SD recorders came with a PATA hard drive, but that interface is becoming scarce so SD switched.  Note that both the 702 and the 722 (for that matter, all SD recorders) can record to an external Firewire HD.  Portable HD with Firewire are not too common, but can be found.  So it is possible to run a 702 with redundant media and get nearly the reliability of the 722.

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The new 722s come with a 160 gig SATA hard drive.

slick, I didn't know. Thanks.

[moooose]

Note that both the 702 and the 722 (for that matter, all SD recorders) can record to an external Firewire HD.  Portable HD with Firewire are not too common, but can be found.  So it is possible to run a 702 with redundant media and get nearly the reliability of the 722.

Just to add that the 702 can record to an external FW HD only if connected to an external power supply.

[notlance]

Just to add that the 702 can record to an external FW HD only if connected to an external power supply.

That is not true; the 702 will record to an external FW HD without an external power supply.  First, this is what Sound Devices says on the subject:

"FireWire Bus Powering
The six-pin FireWire port on the 702 provides power for bus-powered FireWire drives. The following conditions should be observed when connecting to bus-powered drives.
•  Bus powering a drive requires external DC powering of the 702. The 702 cannot operate buspowered drives from an attached Li-ion battery.
•  When recording in realtime to bus-powered FireWire drives the XL-1394 FireWire Power Filter is recommended. This fi lter network isolates the electrical noise in bus-powered drives from the 702.
•  While hot-swapping FireWire cables is possible it is strongly recommended to attach bus-powered drives with the recorder turned off. "

I realize SD says "the 702 cannot operate buspowered drives from an attached Li-ion battery," but it works.  In fact I just tested it on my 702.  Now running an external HD will pull down the battery pretty fast so I'd run the 702 with both internal and external batteries.

Heed the don't hot-swap FireWire warning.  Apparently hot-swapping sometimes fries the 702's FireWire circuit resulting in an expensive repair.

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Heed the don't hot-swap FireWire warning.  Apparently hot-swapping sometimes fries the 702's FireWire circuit resulting in an expensive repair.

IIRC, its related to the hot pin structure that the 6-pin full sized cables use.

You have to be really careful with the cable. I always pull the cable from the computer end first and only after shutting down the recorder.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Guessing the drives in the 7xx decks are hard-disk and not solid-state?  With no moving parts, putting in an SSD would increase reliability and lower the chance of a crash.  They are considerably more expensive than a similarly sized disk drive, though.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Guessing the drives in the 7xx decks are hard-disk and not solid-state?  With no moving parts, putting in an SSD would increase reliability and lower the chance of a crash. 

Go right ahead.  But SSD drives are less reliable in all but unusual vibration/impact situations.

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Guessing the drives in the 7xx decks are hard-disk and not solid-state?  With no moving parts, putting in an SSD would increase reliability and lower the chance of a crash. 

Go right ahead.  But SSD drives are less reliable in all but unusual vibration/impact situations.

correct, plus, the SSDs have been shown to pull more power to operate versus a slow rotation drive. I thought about doing just this when I changed the drive this year and decided to keep a traditional hdd.

[moooose]

That is not true; the 702 will record to an external FW HD without an external power supply.  First, this is what Sound Devices says on the subject:

"FireWire Bus Powering
The six-pin FireWire port on the 702 provides power for bus-powered FireWire drives. The following conditions should be observed when connecting to bus-powered drives.
•  Bus powering a drive requires external DC powering of the 702. The 702 cannot operate buspowered drives from an attached Li-ion battery.
SNIP
I realize SD says "the 702 cannot operate buspowered drives from an attached Li-ion battery," but it works. 

That's surprising. I tried it and it didn't work.