Topic: Taping w/ CA-11's for first time tonight - Suggestions?

[jj69]

I'm going to try out my CA-11 cardioids for the first time tonight.  I'm running the CA-11's into a battery box with bass rolloff, then into an PCM-M10's line input.  The band is a Journey tribute band in a very large room.  This is not really a stealth situation, but the mics will have to be on my person.

I'm just a bit thrown off by the fixed clips on the CA-11's.  They can't be rotated like AT clips, so I'm not sure what is the best way to mount these.

I'd like to mount them to a shirt collar, but I think they'll move around a lot.  Any suggestions?

[darktrain]

I'm going to try out my CA-11 cardioids for the first time tonight.  I'm running the CA-11's into a battery box with bass rolloff, then into an PCM-M10's line input.  The band is a Journey tribute band in a very large room.  This is not really a stealth situation, but the mics will have to be on my person.

I'm just a bit thrown off by the fixed clips on the CA-11's.  They can't be rotated like AT clips, so I'm not sure what is the best way to mount these.

I'd like to mount them to a shirt collar, but I think they'll move around a lot.  Any suggestions?

Don't use roll off with cards(period).

[dorrcoq]

Seems to me fixed clips would be more stable than rotating ones.  My fixed clips have never moved, I know that.

[jj69]

I was just concerned about positioning them when there's no flexibility in the clip. 

Perhaps it's better to clip them to a thick camera strap than my shirt collar? 

[tonebloke]

Seems to me fixed clips would be more stable than rotating ones.  My fixed clips have never moved, I know that.

I agree with dorrcoq. Most times I clip them to my leather jacket collar and I get no disruption to the audio (other than some 7 foot turd standing infront of me) being directed from the speakers, and, no-one can bump them.

[jj69]

I got sort of mixed results from my first try with these mics.  Unfortunately, my seats were farther back from the PA than I'd hoped, and the volume from the PA was not as high as normal for a rock show.  The audience was relatively quiet, however, but to my ears, the recording sounds a bit distant. 

The first thing I noticed is that the treble seems a bit rolled off compared to my omnis.  Is this normal for the CA-11's? 

The second thing I noticed is that the mics seem very, very susceptible to being moved compared to my omnis.  Is one supposed to remain perfectly still when taping with cards?  I'm not talking about turning around 360 degrees, or jumping up and down, or anything extreme like that.  I usually bring a camera to shows, so I was obviously moving my arms when I was taking a few pics with the zoom lens on my small camera.  I was also a bit paranoid about how the mics were clipped to my shirt, so I probably fiddled with them a few times too many. 

The cards were very good at rejecting noise from the yappers around me, and I suppose that's one of the main benefits of them. 

[adrianf74]

I can't speak for the 11's as I use the 14's but I can speak about pick-up patterns, motion, etc. 

If you were further back and the PA was less active than normal, be thankful you used the cards and not the omnis.  A quieter PA system, next to drunken/chatty wooks, is a taper's next-worst-nightmare. 

I find the fact that you're saying the treble seems rolled off... usually it's more-so the bass and that the mids are a little more "murky" if you will.   I know Chris checks his mics before he sends them out so I doubt the mics are the culprit.  Cards are very particular when it comes to where you're standing in the room.  Their pickup pattern is predominantly that  space that is in front of them and not-so-much the sides or behind you.  They also don't like being moved - if they are moved too much while you're doing other activities, you will likely hear this in your recording (less so over speakers but definitely with headphones).  Cards clipped to your shirt will be detrimental depending on where you've clipped them (you want those get those suckers as high as you can) as keeping them lower will also add to your muddy/murkyness.

Cards are good at cutting down the noise from idiots around you but they also have a different "sound" over omnis.  Learning placement and which mic to use only comes with time and practice.

[acidjack]

The culprit for the reduced treble is clipping mics too low. Unless you are 7 feet tall, the mics should be on your head, not a shirt collar. Even ultra premium mics will sound bad with bodies blocking in front of them. 

[newplanet7]

The culprit for the reduced treble is clipping mics too low. Unless you are 7th tall, the mics should be on your head, not a shirt collar. Even ultra premium mics will sound bad with bodies blocking in front of them.

This.
I have a many stealth recordings where the high end is lost from the mics being obstructed/too low.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

The culprit for the reduced treble is clipping mics too low. Unless you are 7th tall, the mics should be on your head, not a shirt collar. Even ultra premium mics will sound bad with bodies blocking in front of them.

This.
I have a many stealth recordings where the high end is lost from the mics being obstructed/too low.

Totally agreed.  As an owner of CA-11's and having recorded with them quite a number of times, I can tell you the one thing they don't lack is treble.  Even if you're tall, wearing them at shirt collar height is too low, IMHO.

[cashandkerouac]

The culprit for the reduced treble is clipping mics too low. Unless you are 7th tall, the mics should be on your head, not a shirt collar. Even ultra premium mics will sound bad with bodies blocking in front of them.

This.
I have a many stealth recordings where the high end is lost from the mics being obstructed/too low.

Totally agreed.  As an owner of CA-11's and having recorded with them quite a number of times, I can tell you the one thing they don't lack is treble.  Even if you're tall, wearing them at shirt collar height is too low, IMHO.

ditto.  if you wear the mics at head height you'll get better sound quality.  you'll also be able to take pictures without bumping into the mics.

[rhinowing]

baseball cap is your friend

[jj69]

I've been listening more to that recording, and I actually find the motion problem far more disturbing than the treble roll off. 

My thinking is that if I have mics mounted on my head (whether they're in a hat or croakies), there are going to be a lot more motion effects in the recording than if I have them mounted on my collar or shirt pocket. 

It's much easier to keep one's body facing forward through an entire set than one's head.  I can't see keeping my head perfectly still through an entire show. 

[acidjack]

It's much easier to keep one's body facing forward through an entire set than one's head.  I can't see keeping my head perfectly still through an entire show.

It gets easier with practice.  The "motion" you are probably hearing is phasing caused by people walking/moving in front of you.  I find you can move your head a little, as long as you don't make sudden motions.

I'm 6'4" and every once in awhile I've gotten away with mounting to a shirt collar or my shoulders, but even then, only with omnis, and even then, I'd have been better off going with a head mount. 

[Church-Audio]

I've been listening more to that recording, and I actually find the motion problem far more disturbing than the treble roll off. 

My thinking is that if I have mics mounted on my head (whether they're in a hat or croakies), there are going to be a lot more motion effects in the recording than if I have them mounted on my collar or shirt pocket. 

It's much easier to keep one's body facing forward through an entire set than one's head.  I can't see keeping my head perfectly still through an entire show.

When the source is not loud you will always hear a shift when you move your head. But if you are close to the source you will not hear that as much. Actually mounting them on your head gives you less shift because the distance is not as great as your shirt collar. The shorter the distance between the mics the less "shift" You will hear but the more your stereo image will suffer. A solid boundary like your head makes for a better recording than mounting them on a collar. When you are far away from the source and you have a low volume source you will always have issues. As the sound pressure increases you will have a more solid image and less shift in that image when you move your head. One way to test this theory is simply to crank a single stereo speaker and move closer to the source and move the mics from side to side then move farther away from the source and listen to the difference. There will be a much more pronounced effect farther away. When you are closer to the sound or the sound is louder and thus more directional less reflected sound gets picked up and thus less localization of the perceived field is picked up.

[jj69]

Thanks Chris.  That explains a lot.  The volume at this show was much lower than I expected.  It was a very large room too, and I was seated about halfway back. 

The PA volume is much louder at most of the rock shows I attend, so it will be interesting to see what kind of results I get next time. 

[jj69]

Just updating this thread because I had a chance to tape again over the weekend.  This time I taped a rock band in a small local bar/club.  The SPL in the room were very loud, and I was about 15 feet from the left stack (which also happened to be a newly upgraded PA).  The result this time was excellent.  I guess the motion effects I got on the last recording were, as Chris noted, due to the low volume in the room and the fact that I was pretty far back. 

FWIW, I had the mics mounted in the same positions on the front pockets of my shirt.  I tried mounting them on my shirt collar, but they're too heavy and they ended up pointing downward toward the floor.  Despite the same mounting position, I did not notice the treble rolloff I experienced last time. 

In fact, the only problem I had was not with the mics, but with the Sony PCM-M10.  Unfortunately, the automatic input level control was accidentally switched on for a few minutes during the first song.  I keep the unit in my pocket and it must have slid over while I was checking the input levels.  Luckily, I caught it right away.  I guess it's time to tape over those damn slider buttons on the M10. 

[acidjack]

^^ Yes, you should tape over pretty much every button on the thing that you won't be actually using to record.

And I would again STRONGLY recommend figuring out how to mount the mics on glasses or otherwise on your head (baseball caps are a popular choice). 

[jj69]

I hear what you're all saying regarding mounting the mics as high as possible, and I'm sure you're right that doing so might result in a slightly better recording.  However, the fact is that I have to draw the line somewhere.  For me, having to wear a baseball cap or having mics on my head would be so annoying that I'd rather not tape at all. 

There's a point where taping becomes more trouble than it's worth, and it can seriously interfere with one's enjoyment of the show.  I've already gone from insisting that the mic/Sony be left on a cocktail table, to wearing a single-point mic, to wearing separate stereo mics.  Frankly, that's as far as I'm willing to go.  I'm still frustrated by the fact that I have carry both a recorder and a batt box, both of which I feel are too big and cumbersome.  I especially hate the rat's nest of wires that ends up in my pocket with all the gear. 

[fmaderjr]

I'm still frustrated by the fact that I have carry both a recorder and a batt box, both of which I feel are too big and cumbersome.  I especially hate the rat's nest of wires that ends up in my pocket with all the gear. 

Chris Church disagrees, but illconditioned and many others have reported that CA-11's are powered fine by the M10's plug in power. You should be fine without the battery box even if the show is very loud.

If you feel the M10 is big & cumbersome be glad you never had to tape with a DAT....

[jj69]

I'm very skeptical about not using external battery power.  These are hard rock/metal bands I'm taping in clubs with rowdy crowds.  The volume was enough to overload several other mics, including the Sony's internals.  I believe the Sony provides only about 3V of plugin power, so I'd be surprised if I got an acceptable result.  If you think it's worth a try, I'll try taking the batt box out of the loop during an opening act to see how it goes. 

I sure wish Sony (or someone) would make a smaller M10 without all the useless features and with a separate battery power supply/preamp built right into the same housing.  That would be a dream come true! 

[adrianf74]

If you feel the M10 is big & cumbersome be glad you never had to tape with a DAT....

 

Or an analog D3 or D6 for that matter.

[fmaderjr]

I'm very skeptical about not using external battery power.  These are hard rock/metal bands I'm taping in clubs with rowdy crowds.  The volume was enough to overload several other mics, including the Sony's internals.  I believe the Sony provides only about 3V of plugin power, so I'd be surprised if I got an acceptable result.  If you think it's worth a try, I'll try taking the batt box out of the loop during an opening act to see how it goes. 

You may be right if the bands are that loud, but if there's a loud opening act you don't care about it can't hurt to try....

If you are willing to invest in another Church mic, you definitely could dump the battery box. Chris will make a set of C-11's with a 2.2 ohm resistor instead of his usual 4.7. This is designed to record loud concerts without a battery box. Costs the same as regular C A-11's. He may be able to make a CA-14 set this way as well, but you'd have to ask him. The modded CA mics can only be used with PIP and should not be used with a 9 volt battery box or your results would be uncertain.

[pontiacb]

I've used my CA11 cards straight into an iRiver on a few occasions when I've forgotten my battery box and have got good results at loud shows (The Fall were one band I can remember), certainly no distortion although admittedly I didnt stand really close to the stack, but it was pretty close and it was loud.

Re mounting on glasses/hat.  I agree that this is what we should do in an ideal world, but I can't be bothered with the extra hassle of doing this so I find the key is trying to get a clear direct line of sight between the mics and the stack, in which case having the mics a bit lower down isn't really an issue.

[aaronji]

I hear what you're all saying regarding mounting the mics as high as possible, and I'm sure you're right that doing so might result in a slightly better recording.  However, the fact is that I have to draw the line somewhere.  For me, having to wear a baseball cap or having mics on my head would be so annoying that I'd rather not tape at all. 

Not to mention that, for some shows, you'd look like an idiot wearing a hat (especially the ever popular Ventair)...

Additional height is good, if feasible, but I find that pontiacb's clear line of "sight" between the mics and the source works well for me.  There are also some venue characteristics (like stadium seating or elevated stacks) that can make the difference between head and shirt height more or less negligible...

[acidjack]

I hear what you're all saying regarding mounting the mics as high as possible, and I'm sure you're right that doing so might result in a slightly better recording.  However, the fact is that I have to draw the line somewhere.  For me, having to wear a baseball cap or having mics on my head would be so annoying that I'd rather not tape at all. 
There's a point where taping becomes more trouble than it's worth, and it can seriously interfere with one's enjoyment of the show.  I've already gone from insisting that the mic/Sony be left on a cocktail table, to wearing a single-point mic, to wearing separate stereo mics.  Frankly, that's as far as I'm willing to go.  I'm still frustrated by the fact that I have carry both a recorder and a batt box, both of which I feel are too big and cumbersome.  I especially hate the rat's nest of wires that ends up in my pocket with all the gear. 

Well, that might be the ticket. If you don't like your recordings, and you don't like the advice you're getting on how to improve them (i.e., you don't want to follow it), then I'm not sure what you are hoping to hear. ::SHRUGS::

[jj69]

I hear what you're all saying regarding mounting the mics as high as possible, and I'm sure you're right that doing so might result in a slightly better recording.  However, the fact is that I have to draw the line somewhere.  For me, having to wear a baseball cap or having mics on my head would be so annoying that I'd rather not tape at all. 
There's a point where taping becomes more trouble than it's worth, and it can seriously interfere with one's enjoyment of the show.  I've already gone from insisting that the mic/Sony be left on a cocktail table, to wearing a single-point mic, to wearing separate stereo mics.  Frankly, that's as far as I'm willing to go.  I'm still frustrated by the fact that I have carry both a recorder and a batt box, both of which I feel are too big and cumbersome.  I especially hate the rat's nest of wires that ends up in my pocket with all the gear. 

Well, that might be the ticket. If you don't like your recordings, and you don't like the advice you're getting on how to improve them (i.e., you don't want to follow it), then I'm not sure what you are hoping to hear. ::SHRUGS::

I don't think that's a fair statement.  I never said I don't like the recordings (I love the one I made this weekend), and I never said I don't like the advice I'm getting (I appreciate everyone efforts and suggestions a great deal, even if I choose not to accept every single piece of advice proffered). 

The point I was making is that we all have different priorities.  I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of quality, if necessary, in order to be more comfortable and enjoy the show itself.  For me, mounting mics and wires on my head is not worth the perceived improvement in recording quality (if any).  YMMV.