Topic: Tascam DR680 or Sony D50, best long-term investment

[Jema]

Hello!

Another thread on what to buy, but please be gentle. While I usually search extensively on items I'm interested in and can make up my own mind, this has me at a loss, so I'm asking for more information and user experiences. One is a DR680 for 750-850 dollars with warranty (about 1200 new in Sweden), and a D50 with accessories which is asking for 500, but I would be offering 400 (750 new).

I'm interested in one of these as primarily a field recorder for film dialogue, and while I know that's not what most of you are doing, since you test all equipment quite thoroughly you might give me some insight. I will probably get a more professional multichannel recorder (SD, Zacxom etc) when I get bigger and more serious jobs, but I'm looking for something to use in the meantime and for smaller gigs (it would later become a backup, and maybe in the case of D50 a plant recorder/mic).

The DR680 would give me 6 channels with phantom power, pretty low noise, and decent ergonomics in a bag. An external power source would be required for maybe an extra 100 dollars. It's quite a new product though, not a very sturdy build, and I've read a lot of scary stories about malfunctioning units (but most owners here seem to agree that they would still buy it again for the amazing value). Maybe it's not worth it if it would ever slow down a shoot becouse of malfunction, and I don't know how long I can expect to be able to use it. 2 years? 5 years or longer?

The D50 has 2 channels, good running time on AA-batteries, decent preamps with high gain (good enough with somewhat quiet mics and low dialogue? Some nature recordists find it a tad noisy), but it would require an external box for phantom power, adding 50-80 dollars. The ergonomics is a bit worse, but I could probably find a way to get good monitoring of the meters in use, and if I get a mixer in the future this would not be a problem. It's been around for about 4 years, and seems to be quite sturdy in build and reliability, so I think I could expect a long time running it. Since I already have a Zoom H2 that I use quite frequently, the portability and internal mics of the D50 would also make it an upgrade and replacement to that.

So, regarding feature vs cost, the DR680 offers amazing value, but the question is if it's reliable enough? Am I better off with only 2, but more dependable, channels on the sturdier D50?

Thanks in advance!


This question has also been posted by me in on the dvxuser forum - those interested can look at those responses too.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?265004-Best-long-term-investment-Sony-D50-or-Tascam-DR680#post2454483

[rastasean]

The question is: do you need to record more than two tracks at a time.

[DigiGal]

Why limit yourself with only those two options?  There are better choices for your interim needs.

Best to get a recorder with XLR inputs the D50 does not have them and the DR680 appears to be like Russian Roulette.

[Jema]

More is better, but two good and dependable tracks is better than six mediocre and unstable ones.

What I mean is that of course I would love, and make use of, more than two tracks, but if the DR680 is a bit unstable or wont last as long for my uses then I'd rather go with two tracks. The reason for this limited selection of equipments is because I can get both used right now, and it's quite rare in Sweden. I'm just looking to get a good deal.

[fmaderjr]

I'm interested in one of these as primarily a field recorder for film dialogue, and while I know that's not what most of you are doing, since you test all equipment quite thoroughly you might give me some insight. I will probably get a more professional multichannel recorder (SD, Zacxom etc) when I get bigger and more serious jobs, but I'm looking for something to use in the meantime and for smaller gigs (it would later become a backup, and maybe in the case of D50 a plant recorder/mic).

The DR680 would give me 6 channels with phantom power, pretty low noise, and decent ergonomics in a bag. Maybe it's not worth it if it would ever slow down a shoot becouse of malfunction, and I don't know how long I can expect to be able to use it. 2 years? 5 years or longer?

I think you may have answered your own question. A number of us have had major problems with DR680's, usually in way less than 2 years. Maybe the D50 isn't ideal for you, but I certainly wouldn't get a DR680.

[F.O.Bean]

Dont forget about the DR2D

[Jema]

fmaderjr: It's funny, someone at dvxuser said close to the opposite - he didn't like the idea of not having xlr-inputs, and thought the DR680 would last me at least 4-5 years if I didn't mistreat it (thereby not saying it was an ideal choice, just the better of the two).

F.O.Bean: I considered the DR2D some time ago, but I didn't like the specs of it's preamps. I'd rather go the route of an M10, but they cost about 350 dollars in sweden.

Maybe I should wait and invest in something that is more closely fitting my bill. It seems the lowest price to pay for a stable multitrack recorder with good preamps might be the R-4 Pro (the R-44 I've heard is a bit noisy, but good value with a mixer in front). I don't think I'll ever find an SD-mixer used, as that would otherwise be the way to go I think.

[fmaderjr]

fmaderjr: It's funny, someone at dvxuser said close to the opposite - he didn't like the idea of not having xlr-inputs, and thought the DR680 would last me at least 4-5 years if I didn't mistreat it (thereby not saying it was an ideal choice, just the better of the two).

I just said not to get a DR680. Our guys don't mistreat them and many have had problems. Too bad you can't get an Edirol R-44 at a good price if 4 channels would be enough for you. For 2 channels I'd rather have the D50 with a preamp if I needed XLR inputs (the Naiant Little-boxes are great and quite reasonable, at least in the US).

Or even though I got a dud with my Busman FR2-LE, everyone else seems to love them and this one is a steal:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=149737.0
perhaps reasonable enough that it is even a bargain with shipment and duty to your country.

[NOLAfishwater]

get the 680. It will give you the flexibility to add more tracks. matrix > 2channel audience recording. later down the line if you buy an external preamp with digital output you can feed tracks 7-8. I have been super happy with mine.

[fmaderjr]

Some people love it, some people have had it crap out on them. Sounds like a good machine when its working, but you have to decide if its worth the risk.

Lots of people were selling R-44's and buying the DR680 when it first came out. After all the complaints about the DR680's reliability, you don't see too many R-44's for sale any more.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

fmaderjr: It's funny, someone at dvxuser said close to the opposite - he didn't like the idea of not having xlr-inputs, and thought the DR680 would last me at least 4-5 years if I didn't mistreat it (thereby not saying it was an ideal choice, just the better of the two).

The problem is that the DR680 hasn't been out even close to that long to verify if this is true; it's purely conjecture on the part of whomever said that.  Not saying it can't/won't happen, just that some of the stories that have been written about this deck on the forum aren't reassuring.

F.O.Bean: I considered the DR2D some time ago, but I didn't like the specs of it's preamps. I'd rather go the route of an M10, but they cost about 350 dollars in sweden.

Maybe I should wait and invest in something that is more closely fitting my bill. It seems the lowest price to pay for a stable multitrack recorder with good preamps might be the R-4 Pro (the R-44 I've heard is a bit noisy, but good value with a mixer in front). I don't think I'll ever find an SD-mixer used, as that would otherwise be the way to go I think.

If I remember correctly, I recall the folks at Edirol/Roland saying that the R-44 has the same preamps as the R-4 pro.  I'd guess they're at least on par with those of the Sony recorders.  Going on 3 years with my stock R-44 and I haven't had any issues with them being noisy.

Some people love it [the Tascam DR680], some people have had it crap out on them. Sounds like,e a good machine when its working, but you have to decide if its worth the risk.

Lots of people were selling R-44's and buying this when it first came out. After all the complaints about its reliability you don't see too many R-44's for sale any more.

True on all counts.

[Ozpeter]

Panatrope's Third Law of Recording - you always seem to need one more channel than you actually have available.

[Jema]

fmaderjr: Thanks for the tip on the FR2-LE, but I was too late. It was a great deal, and just might have been worth it with shipping etc (the thing that usually kills buying internationally in sweden is that we have to pay 25% taxes on everything, even used, and it's counted in after shipping and customs - the real cost could become up to the double).

Fried Chicken Boy: Sorry, I confused the R-44 with the earlier R-4. Searched for some info, and it does seem like the R-44 and the R-4 Pro uses the same preamps. This is great news, as I've used the R-4 Pro several times and quite like it - the preamps are definately good enough in my opinion. The only bad thing is it's limiter and HPF that is not very good for film and more fitted for music, but otherwise a very solid recorder. I have to be on the lookout for one!

"Panatrope's Third Law of Recording - you always seem to need one more channel than you actually have available."
This is painfully true... But for film, maybe it's a good thing that we don't have too many tracks. It would take a lot of time to manage them in post, and I imagine it's easy to get sloppy and instead of trying to get a few good channels just hook up more mics and hope they cover what you need.

[Jema]

Did some more searching, and too bad - the R-44 and the R-4 Pro does not seem to be created equal in the preamp departement

Found a post from someone who have tried both and also confirmed with Edirol that there are differences.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?165469-Edirol-R44-versus-Fostex-FR-2LE-best-pre-s

Another test I found shows the R-44 as having an EIN of -112.7 A-weighted, while the R-4 Pro has -128.4dB A-weighted. Pretty big difference.
https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/type/www/audio-reports/RecorderList/docs/R-44_R4-Pro_FR2_LundstenMeas.htm

So, from that it seems the R-44 is out of the picture (at least buying new).

[fmaderjr]

I just read this post by Busman and perhaps the 680 might be worth the risk to you if you power it with a 12 volt source instead of the 9 volts most of us have used:

It is not Tascam's fault that we want to use power supplies that do not supply the specified voltage that is marked directly on the unit itself.  I have sold a large amount of modified units to many TV/film sound people without any problems,  I am not sure what type of powering solutions are being used by these operators.

I did have a problem with a unit I had purchased for myself but again it was being powered with a 9v DVD battery and since have switched what I use. I blame myself for not using the proper power supply. 

I just feel that Tascam is being run through the ringer here for a problem they did not create.  They put out a product that is unrivaled in the amount of features for the price so maybe they cut a corner or two that would not happen if you spent $5000 but I for one sure don't have $5000 for a hobby recorder.  those corners that may have been cut may not cause problems if the instructions with the unit were followed correctly.  12v power means 12v power and if you use anything else then the you must accept the consequences if problems arise.

I still feel this unit is the best choice for a multichannel recorder that is under $1000.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

What Chris Busman has overlooked, fmaderjr, is that there are differing reports from 680 users.  Some have problems running the deck with the specified 12v and others don't; some have problems running the deck with 9v and others don't.  There's no consistency with the external powering issue.

Thanks for the enlightening info about the R-4 Pro vs. R-44 mic pres, Jema.  It would appear that Edirol has fed different people different information about this.  If I can find the post/thread where I read about the pres I will post it. 

[Jema]

fmaderjr: I've read the whole thread on the DR680, and I'm aware that some people suspect the powering source to be the culprit of some problems. But as Fried says It doesn't seem like there's any real facts or conclusions yet though.

The fact that Busman think it's the best multritrack recorder under 1000 dollars does say something about the quality you can get with it.

[F.O.Bean]

I wouldnt run a 680 if Tascam paid me Just way too many problems

So my vote goes w/ a Sony D50 or M10

[Jema]

Hmm, right now I'm leaning towards letting the DR680 go actually. I'm thinking that on very small projects I'll probably only use a boom and no wireless, and anything bigger will probably have budget to rent, or give me salary so I can invest on something more high-end.

Right now it looks like there wont be many offerings on the DR, so maybe the owner will lower the price. If so I might take it, but I don't think so.

Thanks for all your replies!

[rastasean]

get it for a good price and check to see what the best kind of battery solution is.

[acidjack]

...also, if you don't like the Edirol R-44's pres, you can have them modded by Doug Oade or Busman to improve performance.   There are several mods available depending upon the type of work you're doing.  I think this "Super" Mod is the one you'd want: http://www.oade.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=OBA&Category_Code=EDIR44-Super 

I'm one of the dissatisfied owners of a 680 (well, now on the 3rd).  I have powered some with DVD batts, some with Tekkeons.  BESIDES them dying when powered by anything other than the AC adapter, I *still* would not buy another one, since I also consider the glitchy digital input, utterly crap metering, etc. to also be issues. 

The D50 is a rock-solid unit; so is the Edirol.  Both have the advantage of not being first-generation products, also.  I've heard the old R-4 had issues, which were fixed with the R-44. 

[johnfb]

sorry to hijack the thread but follows on from the talk of going for a Sony and external pre amp....

do you know of any good preamps off the shelf for getting a good signal into the sony (or whatever recorder)?
I have looked at getting a naint littlebox but don't have time for the 3/4 week turnaround as I'm recording in 2 weeks in Africa.
My partner is in New York and can pick something up there but can't really see much that is suitable.
Any suggestions?
(we are even considering getting a sound devices 702 but I'd rather spend less if a preamp could be found quick)
(main mic source is a stereo rode NT4 but many others)

[Jema]

Acidjack: Good advice for the others reading this post, but us Swedes do not have it easy buying from outside EU. Trading laws makes it a pretty bad idea. 1000 for the R-44 + 250 for the busman mod. Add 50 dollars of shipping, another 50 or so for customs, and then 25 % taxes on the whole sum. Ending price is above 1650 dollars, plus it can give problems with warranties.

I appreciate your feedback on your sorrows with the DR680. The Sony or a similar recorder is looking like the better choice, and maybe in the near future just bite the bullet and buy a mixpre-D (at least until the next generation of the DR680 comes out...).

[Fried Chicken Boy]

sorry to hijack the thread but follows on from the talk of going for a Sony and external pre amp....

do you know of any good preamps off the shelf for getting a good signal into the sony (or whatever recorder)?
I have looked at getting a naint littlebox but don't have time for the 3/4 week turnaround as I'm recording in 2 weeks in Africa.
My partner is in New York and can pick something up there but can't really see much that is suitable.
Any suggestions?
(we are even considering getting a sound devices 702 but I'd rather spend less if a preamp could be found quick)
(main mic source is a stereo rode NT4 but many others)

Apologies as well for the hijack, Jema...

Sound Devices MixPre.  Small, lots of clean gain, runs off 2 AA batteries and (like all SD gear) built like a tank.  The only cables you'll need are XLR's from the mics to the MixPre and a 1/8" TRS/stereo cable to go from the MixPre to the input of your Sony or other recorder.  A quick look on their website and it appears that B&H has them in stock; their brick & mortar shop is right in NYC.

[jlykos]

sorry to hijack the thread but follows on from the talk of going for a Sony and external pre amp....

do you know of any good preamps off the shelf for getting a good signal into the sony (or whatever recorder)?
I have looked at getting a naint littlebox but don't have time for the 3/4 week turnaround as I'm recording in 2 weeks in Africa.
My partner is in New York and can pick something up there but can't really see much that is suitable.
Any suggestions?
(we are even considering getting a sound devices 702 but I'd rather spend less if a preamp could be found quick)
(main mic source is a stereo rode NT4 but many others)

I'm living in Mali right now and I would recommend something bulletproof against dust and grit.  For a preamp, I would go with one of the Sound Devices units.  They are very well-built and run off AA batteries that you can find in most places.  I really shy away from charging DVD batteries and such here because of strong power surges and the like.  I'm not sold on the SD preamp sound (although I did run a MP-2 for a while), but their units are sturdy and small, which is what you really need.

Use windscreens on the mics, no matter what.  You don't want the diaphragms getting contaminated with junk.  I also like recorders with metal construction like the D50 (I have one) which are a little sturdier than the others.

[acidjack]

Acidjack: Good advice for the others reading this post, but us Swedes do not have it easy buying from outside EU. Trading laws makes it a pretty bad idea. 1000 for the R-44 + 250 for the busman mod. Add 50 dollars of shipping, another 50 or so for customs, and then 25 % taxes on the whole sum. Ending price is above 1650 dollars, plus it can give problems with warranties.

I appreciate your feedback on your sorrows with the DR680. The Sony or a similar recorder is looking like the better choice, and maybe in the near future just bite the bullet and buy a mixpre-D (at least until the next generation of the DR680 comes out...).

I hear you - it's not inexpensive.  Of course, the same thing that makes the -44 expensive will also make repeatedly shipping in your 680 for repair/replacement an even bigger hassle.

If anything, I'd consider NOLAFishwater's used one in the Yard Sale.  Louie takes care of his gear and knows his stuff; he appears to have a "good" one that has at least lasted for a decent number of shows. 

But in terms of something to keep long-term, I'd still say the D50 is a great choice, and will always be a solid go-to two-channel recorder.

[Jema]

No worries about the hijack - hope it helped.

Does the D50 actually have a metal frame? I heard someone say it was plastic and probably wouldn't hold for much more than most other handheld recorders.

[AB52]

D-50 has a lightweight aluminum case.  The build is fantastic.  The sound is fantastic.  I use mine with external mics through a USBpre2.  I have a major battery for the USBpre2.  Only complaint - Mics to usbpre2 with battery hookup to D50.   
The sound is exquisite. 

[Jema]

AB52: Good to hear about the D50 having an aluminium case. It's also great that you like your results, but I would think the credit goes to the usbpre2 before the Sony for a big part of the sound

I've been wondering about the connection between mixer and recorder in this case. I've heard of a few people using a mixer in front of a recorder with a 1/8 input, and some says it's fine and others that it makes them a bit worried. Is it becouse it's easy to pull it out or damage it in some way?

[kleiner Rainer]

Hi Jema,

check Neutrik for the ultimate in 3.5mm Plugs:

http://www.neutrik.com/en/audio/plugs-and-jacks/35-mm-right-angle-stereo-plug/

I use them to build my own special cables. Buy the gold ones, they are worth it. In Europe, Thomann has them in stock (together with other Neutrik goodies):

http://www.thomann.de/de/neutrik_ntp3rcb_winkelklinkenstecker.htm

I can recommend the D50 (and the M10, I own both). Great for outdoor recording, sturdy, logical user interface, incredible battery life - no more worries of running out of juice in the middle of nowhere. Having started with tape decks (Sony WM-D6C and TCD-5M, Marantz CP430, TEAC DA-P20), I can fully appreciate the quality of the Sony PCM series. They should last as long as their tape based predecessors, if you care for them a little bit.
The online availability of a service manual for the D50 should help in that regard...

BTW the remote control that comes with the M10 also works with the D50!

Greetings,

Rainer

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Buy the gold ones [Neutrik connectors], they are worth it.

Yes and no.  There's actually a thread about this HERE.  While the anti-oxidizing properties of gold are well established and, in theory, should make a cleaner/better contact with whatever you're connecting, what most people don't realize is that, generally (yes, this includes Neutrik), the gold plating on a connector is thinner than on the same connector with silver plating.  Due to the expense, I suppose.  Using the gold plated connector for a static application in a corrosion-friendly environment would probably be where it shines but if it's a connector that is constantly being plugged and unplugged, that plating will wear faster through repeated use.  Granted, it will take a lot of usage to get the connector down to the bare metal but it's something to be aware of.  As far as the actual sonic properties of gold vs. silver, I'd be willing to bet there are very few, if any, people that could tell the difference in a listening test.

If you like the way the gold plating looks and you rest easier knowing that it stands up better to corrosion, by all means buy 'em.  Otherwise, you're just fine using silver plated connectors and can just spray them with a shot of DeOxit from time to time if you're concerned about a "dirty" connection.  Ultimately, it comes down to what you like the look of.

[kleiner Rainer]

Hi Fried Chicken Boy,

trust me. I know what I´m doing and saying. I have been working as a design engineer for electronic systems for the last quarter of a century. Whenever you want to transfer low-level signals between contacts (and microphone and consumer line levels fall into that category), you either use thick gold plating or you have to "wet" the contact with a dc current in the mA range to break through a tiny oxide film that forms on the two contact areas if the contact material is something else. Signal relays for low level signals mostly use AgPd contacts with gold plating because massive gold contacts would be too expensive. Silver alone tarnishes, not to talk about the effects of sulphur on silver (this gives a nice, black  insulating layer - anyone who has some Texas Instruments TTL chips from the seventies in his junk box knows that). Cost drives the replacement of gold in contact applications - for most applications there is a suitable substitute, but a well made gold plating (and I bet Neutrik knows how to do it) still beats all substitutes when it comes to reliability in low-level signal switching.

My Neutrik 3.5mm plug is used in outdoor applications, where it gets wet or dirty. I clean it regularly with denaturated alcohol and wipe it clean with a paper handkerchief before plugging it in. From time to time I treat it with a special cleaner for gold plated contacts (Kontakt Chemie "Gold 2000"). After a year of intensive use, it still looks like new.

My experience in the last decades concerning connectors has been this: buy well-made connectors from reputable manufacturers. Saving on connectors (and cables) increase the probability that you lose a valuable recording, maybe one that cannot be repeated. Been there, done that.

Greetings,

Rainer

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Perhaps we're talking about different things, but you'll get no argument from me about the superior corrosion resistance and contact integrity of gold plating as compared to silver plating; I said as much in my post.  What I was pointing out is that gold is a softer metal than silver and will wear faster.  Additionally, the plating is generally considerably thinner when they use gold.  Don't just take my word for it, the specs are posted right on Neutrik's website and includes contact plating thickness under the "Technical Information".  A few links for what are probably some of the more common Neutrik XLR connectors, the X series:

NC3FX-B (female XLR, gold contacts)
NC3FX-BAG (female XLR, silver contacts)
NC3MX-B (male XLR, gold contacts)
NC3MX-BAG (male XLR, silver contacts)

I'll stand by what I said about most people not being able to hear a difference between the sonic properties of gold vs. silver, especially when doing what most of us on this forum do, ie: recording amplified music, rock concerts, etc.  Which goes back to my original suggestion of "use what you like" when it comes to Neutrik connectors.  They're all made well.

As far as personal experience, I'm not a design engineer but I can tell you that I have microphone cables with silver-plated XLR connectors that I've had and been using for the past 20+ years, haven't had a bit of trouble with them and they're still going strong.  YMMV.

[kleiner Rainer]

Hi Fried Chicken Boy,

yes, I read the data sheet: it says "gal 0.2 μm Au hard alloy over 2 μm Ni". You know what "hard alloy" means? If not, look here:

http://event08.ise-online.org/site/files/ise080133.pdf

BTW I suspect that silver is also alloyed to increase its corrosion resistance and hardness.

I suppose the phantom power to the microphones serves the purpose of "contact wetting current" well enough, 48V at 1-2mA should suffice. Since we were talking about 3.5mm stereo plugs for consumer and semi pro devices (PCM-D50), there is no phantom power of that magnitude, so I prefer to err on the safe side.

So lets sum it up: our aim is to transfer low level signals from A to B without distortion or intermittent contact. Whatever material achieves that is okay and its up to personal preference. OK?

Greetings,

Rainer