Topic: Recommendations: field recorders, either 2 or multi.

[Candace]

For the last few years, I have been recording on a very limited basis, only at shows I know I have power at, as I am using an Edirol 16-channel mixing console connected to a laptop DAW, recording either in SONAR Producer or WaveLab. I've been recording at 24/96 usually, and creating DVD-A masters in WL. I want to get back into field recording on a limited basis, and am trying to pick a unit. I've narrowed it down to three. FWIW, my mics are the MBHO 603.

Units
Fostex FR2-LE
Tascam DR680
Edirol R44

I won't be using an external pre or DA, just mics in. One of the reasons I am reconsidering the Fostex and thinking of either the Tascam or Edirol is that my band is about to release our album, which has been mixed and mastered at Airshow by James Tuttle and David Glasser. I was thinking that as we start playing out, maybe we can record our shows with two aud mics and a soundboard feed and release them.

In doing some prelim research on threads here, it looks like the Tascam might have issues? What are people's thoughts on sound quality for direct in for these units, and their reliability in the field. Also, for power, I was hoping I could use my old EcoCharge 6V batteries that I used to use with my Marantz DAT, but maybe I might need something else?

OK, have at me!!

And if you are interested in sampling my band's music, or ordering the EP or preordering the full album, check out blackpostcardsmusic.com (sorry for the spam, but have to get the word out!!!)

[rastasean]

Most people will say go dr680 since it offers so many inputs to record on. Out of the three on the list, the tascam is also the newest so its more "modern".

You will find a lot of useful information for each recorder if you read all the threads that it pertains to.

in the YS there's a fostex 2LE: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=153483.0

If I were to buy I recorder, i would look at the    Tascam DR100mkii since it has xlr inputs, 1/8" input and opti input. Also, its (probably) smaller than then fostex 2LE recorder.

When you record at 24/96, are you eventually down sampling/ down converting to something more like 24/44.1 or even 16/44.1 or keeping it at 24/96?

[Fried Chicken Boy]

They're all good decks so it mostly comes down to how many tracks you want to record.  There's no argument that the Tascam will give you the most bang for the buck with up to 8 channels.  There are definitely people who gripe about its reliability and its issues with external powering but there are just as many, if not more, people who praise it and run it without any problems.  I don't have one nor have I used one extensively so I can't really weigh in on that aspect.  I can tell you that the recordings I've heard made with them can be excellent.

I have owned and used an R-44 for nearly 3 1/2 years now and love it to death.  Easy to use, very dependable and nearly bulletproof, the only issues I've ever had with it were caused by user error (read: me).  I've pulled many excellent recordings with it and if I were to suddenly find myself in the market for another portable recorder tomorrow, I would buy it again without hesitation.  YMMV, but that's my take.

[hi and lo]

Get the Tascam or Edirol. It really just depends on the number of channels you might need. After having a lot of trouble with the 680 out of the gate, I'm happy to say it's done nothing but play nice for over 8 months now. I even had the balls to update the firmware to 1.2 a few weeks ago.

One thing I'll say about it.... for ~$100 per channel, the pre's and A/D sound damn good. Way above my expectation.

[acidjack]

The Tascam is a PITA to use, has performance issues that are well-documented on this site (though some of them are alleviated by plugging the deck into a wall outlet; something most of us rarely have the chance to do but which for your use you presumably would), and is very much a "you get what you pay for" situation. If you need more than 4 channels, go for it - it's the cheapest thing for the next $2500 or so dollars north.  If not, the R-44 is simpler, better built, and possibly better sounding.  Especially if you are trying to play a show and don't have a ton of time to mess around with settings and whatnot, the -44 is much more "idiot-proof" than the Tascam.   I have owned or co-owned both, and while I occasionally would love to have 2 more channels, I am much happier with the -44.

[Gutbucket]

..possibly better sounding.

That statement jumped out at me. Really?

I don't disagree with anything else in the post, and own both myself, but I haven't had any problems with my DR-680 so my biases are understandably somewhat different.  If 4 channesl are enough, R-44 still wins in my book, but not because I hear any sound quality difference.

[hi and lo]

Pretty sure it's time for a few comps. 

[Gutbucket]

Bring it!

[asobriquet]

Tape! Tape! Tape! Tape! ;

[acidjack]

..possibly better sounding.

That statement jumped out at me. Really?

I don't disagree with anything else in the post, and own both myself, but I haven't had any problems with my DR-680 so my biases are understandably somewhat different.  If 4 channesl are enough, R-44 still wins in my book, but not because I hear any sound quality difference.

I used "possibly" for that very reason.  You're absolutely right [sheepish] - I have no information either way.  I also don't have a stock R-44 anymore (though mine was stock when I bought it; the mod happened later).

I withdraw that statement - but do suggest we do some comps!

[dallman]

Candace,

The Tascam and Edirol are both fine machines. Most of the Tascam issues are centered around problems caused by one type of battery set on automatic versus a specific voltage. That should not be an issue. I think the Tascam is far more flexible in what you can do, but the Edirol is excellent and if it meets your needs, you will have no issues with it.

That said, based on what you have layed out as your equipment and history, I think you would like the Tascam more then the Edirol because you can do more with it. Just my opinion of course.

[yltfan]

I have owned both the Edirol and the Tascam, used both ac power and dvd batteries and never had any issues with either. If you want the option of 6 or 8 channels, it seems like a no-brainer to go with the Tascam. Also, as far as I know, no one has ever said anything negative about the stock pres and a/d on the Tascam, with lots of people raving about them. The only issues are the battery ones mentioned above, but most people have never had problems (knock on wood).

[Candace]

Thanks everybody. I decided on the Tascam, in part because B&H is selling them now for the ridiculous price of $650, with a travel case and free shipping. That's too good a deal to pass up. Now I just have to decide on power, since I sold my EcoCharge 12V a few years ago when I ditched my Apogee AD1K. Thinking about something like this: http://www.thebatterygeeks.com/BG-6-12-44-Portable-DVD-Player-Battery-Pack-p/5-12-50.htm

or maybe one of the DVD batteries. Thoughts?

[asobriquet]

Good choice, Candace!  For extra peace of mind, you might want to consider purchasing an extended warranty from B&H.

[yltfan]

$650, including the case? That is pretty fabulous. Congrats on the choice and great deal. Those cases were $100 not long ago (now $49 at B & H) glad I waited a bit. Anyone use one? It it worth $49?

[kirk97132]

I think it should be pointed out that the Tascam is only 6 channels without an outboard preamp.  Not eight channels since the OP said no extra preamp.  Channels 7 & 8 require SPDIF input for the 680 to record separate tracks on them.  Otherwise they are only bounce down tracks. 


I'd like to hear the R-44 VS the DR-680 side by side.  I have owned both but not at the same time.  To me I thought the R-44 sound was just a touch grainer than the Tascam. 

[yltfan]

^ or a soundboard with a digital output. No idea how common that is, but I know of several here in Portland.

[Gutbucket]

I bought my R-44 new from Oade with the concert mod, so I can't really comment on it's stock pre's from personal experience.  My own experience is simply comparing OCM R-44 and stock DR-680 informally. Which of them I choose to run is determined not by the internal preamps but by track count and other things like the ganged gain adjustment feature on the 680, the slightly smaller size of the R-44, simplicy of operation of the R44, etc.  If it's something for which I want to use my best signal chain, I'll put the V3 in front of either one, but I don't feel that is a necessity.  Often I'm running the V3 with the 680 primarily as a way to get 8 channels.

[rigpimp]

Welcome aboard Candace.  I patched off of you for quite a few sets at Rockygrass 2011.  The deck I was using then, and still am now, is the R-44.  I spoke with Mike in July about getting a Tascam 680 as it seemed like the cats meow.  Now that I see so many folks having power issues if I wanted to add another 4 channels I would just add another R-44 and a sync cable.  Just my $.02

Keith

[Fried Chicken Boy]

... if I wanted to add another 4 channels I would just add another R-44 and a sync cable.  Just my $.02

Using the 1/8" TRS cable will only sync the start and stop of two R-44's.  It will NOT sync the clocks of the two decks and you will get time drift between them.  However, you can successfully clock-sync two R-44's via S/PDIF through a USBPre2 and they will both sync to the clock of that pre.  Or, you can go S/PDIF out from one R-44 into the digi-in of the other one.  The second R-44 will "double" those two channels and you will only get 6 unique tracks total that way, but at least they will all be in sync.

[Gutbucket]

... if I wanted to add another 4 channels I would just add another R-44 and a sync cable.  Just my $.02

Using the 1/8" TRS cable will only sync the start and stop of two R-44's.  It will NOT sync the clocks of the two decks and you will get time drift between them.  However, you can successfully clock-sync two R-44's via S/PDIF through a USBPre2 and they will both sync to the clock of that pre.  Or, you can go S/PDIF out from one R-44 into the digi-in of the other one.  The second R-44 will "double" those two channels and you will only get 6 unique tracks total that way, but at least they will all be in sync.

Yep, you'd get a total of 6 different channels either way (two R44s = 8 channels total, but with one pair duplicated) using the SPDIF input as the R44 clock.  Doesn't matter if that source is the USBPre2 or another R44.  R44 always records the SPDIF input to one channel pair and can't simply sync clock using SPDIF while record separate analog inputs to those tracks.

edit- as acidjack notes below, the USBPre2 can lock to an external SPDIF input and pass that same clock to it's SPDIF output while substituting audio signal from it's own mic preamps.  That does allow for 8 seperate clock sync'd channels on two R44s.  You'd just need to time align the files from the two machines in post.  Cool trick.

Doing the same with the DR680 allows you to record up to 6 'other' analog input channels on the one machine.  The main difference is that with the 680 you can choose to use the SPDIF input for clock input only and not record the SPDIF signal if it will just be a duplicate of what you are recording on the other machine.  If you do record the SPDIF input you can record 8 channels total on one machine.  Note: you can’t play all 8 channels back simultaneously from the 680, but that’s probably not a deal killer for anyone here.


I’ve personally talked with two people who have run R44s in a master/slave arrangement with the sync cable to get 8 channels total, who told me their clocks sync’d and they just needed to time align the files as the start/stop times were off by some milliseconds.  But I also know some people here reported that didn’t work for them- instead start/stop worked with some milliseconds delay but clocks didn’t sync, even though the manual and at least one official video claims they will.  Maybe some units will and some won’t.

[acidjack]

... if I wanted to add another 4 channels I would just add another R-44 and a sync cable.  Just my $.02

Using the 1/8" TRS cable will only sync the start and stop of two R-44's.  It will NOT sync the clocks of the two decks and you will get time drift between them.  However, you can successfully clock-sync two R-44's via S/PDIF through a USBPre2 and they will both sync to the clock of that pre.  Or, you can go S/PDIF out from one R-44 into the digi-in of the other one.  The second R-44 will "double" those two channels and you will only get 6 unique tracks total that way, but at least they will all be in sync.

This is not correct IIRC-

R-44 #1 takes mic 1 and mic 2.  Its digi-out is connected to the USBPre2. 

R-44 #2 takes USBPre2's output (which, if you connect mics to the USBPre2, is those mics) plus has its other two mic inputs.  Total of 8.

I.E., the USBPre2 is only passing the CLOCK from deck 1, not the signal.

When Fried Chicken Boy and I did this, this is how it worked.  In that case we only had 6 channels because we only needed 6, but we could have had 8. 

[Gutbucket]

OK, I can see how that scenario would let you get a total of 8 channels on two clock sync'd R44s.

I've done something similar by using the SPDIF out from the R44 to clock sync the DR-680.  In that case I had 4 mics going into the R44, and a SPDIF cable out from the R44 to the DR-680 along with six other mic inputs.  That gave me 10 seperate channels.  I went ahead and recorded the duplicated SPDIF input on the DR-680 just as a safety since I had card space, meaning I actually recorded 12 channels total, and just tossed the extra ones when I got home, but I could have just recorded 10.. and that's actually what I did the next couple times once I knew it would work.

[rigpimp]

So if one ran a V3 into the SPDIF on 1&2 on R-44 #1 then used the sync cable to connect R-44 #1 and R-44#2 would all eight channels be clocked to the using the V3's word clock or does that silly little cable only sync the start and stop features?

[Gutbucket]

So if one ran a V3 into the SPDIF on 1&2 on R-44 #1 then used the sync cable to connect R-44 #1 and R-44#2 would all eight channels be clocked to the using the V3's word clock or does that silly little cable only sync the start and stop features?

Some say it does, some say it doesn't. Maybe it's certain machines or a less than robust sync interface.  You'll probably have to test it to see.  The sync cable is supposed to transmit clock as well as transport commands, which is what the manual states.  But some here who have tried it reported that it only transmits the transport commands and doesn't sync clocks.  But as I mentioned above, I've heard from other users that it does lock clocks.  Never tried it myself.

[acidjack]

So if one ran a V3 into the SPDIF on 1&2 on R-44 #1 then used the sync cable to connect R-44 #1 and R-44#2 would all eight channels be clocked to the using the V3's word clock or does that silly little cable only sync the start and stop features?

I believe the answer is no.  I use the "USBPre2 in the middle" method developed by page because the other cable between decks doesn't sync the clocks. 

[Gutbucket]

^^^
There's the safe answer, I'd trust the advice of someone like acidjack who has done it.

[kirk97132]

I believe the answer is no.  I use the "USBPre2 in the middle" method developed by page because the other cable between decks doesn't sync the clocks.

Without trying to muddy the waters, I can attest that in actual use in the field the cord DID NOT sync the two clocks.  When I questioned tech support they confirmed that it DID NOT sync the clocks.  Yet, you can now find information listed on the edirol/roland website that says it does.  And then there is also the fact that any random two R-44's may or may not run at the same speed.  Or on shorter recording run close enough not to matter.  With all that being said, I also run a USBPre2 and besides having an awesome preamp it is an absolute perfect sync when used with two decks as long as one deck(or 2nd preamp) can provide a spdif output to the pre2.  It's simple nothing to set it just does it once you plug the second spdif signal in. 

[Gutbucket]

OK, here's the next logical question-

Can one sync clocks using the USBPre2 and SPDIF connections and also use the 3.5mm TRS sync cable + master/slave setting to control the transport from the master machine at the same time?

[phil_er_up]

Third night at Broomfield P&F shows Feb 18, 2012, some women in the OTS (first night I had seen her) talking to Tim from CB and she came over to me and asked me about the Tascam DR-680 and said I just bought one. She had long black hair and asked me a few questions about how I powered the unit.

Was that you candice?

[Candace]

Hi Phil'er Up. Yes, that was me! Tim and Rob are long-time friends of mine, from back when we used to tape Panic and SCI in the '90s, as well as Telluride. Thanks for answering my questions. I think I am going to get a Battery Geeks

[Candace]

Hi guys. So I've been using my DR680, and overall I like it, but I have noticed something weird. The preamps on the right channels seem to be consistently hotter than the left. Any ideas on what could cause that?