Author Topic: sound board recording.. ? (Read 7001 times)

towncop1978 · « **on:** April 09, 2012, 03:47:02 PM »

hey guys.. Quick question about recording from sound board... I have a M10 and I always record with my CA-14... But this type I will be given an opportunity to record directly via the sound board.. I asked a musician from the group what he tought about people recording their show. His reply was to record any way we wanted. So I asked him if I could plug in his sound board. His reply was yes.. So I am looking to see what connections would be needed to plug it in? I have ordered two cables for this setup... I ordered the 3.5mm to dual 1/4 cable and the 3.5 mm to single stereo 1/4 cable.. I believe I should be able to hook up my M10.. Im just asking for any advice from anyone familiar with recording in this setup.. thank..

acidjack · « **Reply #1 on:** April 09, 2012, 04:09:27 PM »

To answer your question:

Most boards I plug into have RCA "tape" outs, so you'd need an RCA>stereo mini cable for that.

Some also have 1/4", which it sounds like you have covered.

A few have just XLR, for which you'd need an XLR>stereo mini cable or adapters for one of the ones you already have.

You will probably also need an attenuator, unless the sound engineer wants to be nice and be sure to turn the outputs down for you.

The bigger question is whether you really want just a straight SBD if you are only running 2-channel. How big is the room? If it's a stadium or a very large arena, maybe the house mix will be OK. If it's a club (call it 1500 or less), more likely than not the board will be poorly balanced with too much vocals/drums/keys and not enough guitars. It's not because the house doesn't know what they are doing; it is because the mix you are getting is what will sound good coming out of a PA system along with the stage guitar amps.

When mixed with an AUD source, a board is a great thing to have, but on their own, they can be pretty iffy. More likely than not, you'll get something that at best doesn't sound "right" and at worst is just a distorted mess because the signal coming in was too hot.

If you're married to the idea of running SBD, though, I hope someone can point you to a good attenuator cable. I don't own any myself as my deck can control hot incoming signals, but you will (almost) definitely need one.

yltfan · « **Reply #2 on:** April 09, 2012, 04:29:21 PM »

Agree with everything acidjack says above, although I get more xlr outs than rca or 1/4". But I have never done a 1/4" stereo patch. If it's not too late, I would cancel that cable, I think it will be of little use.

A good setup for what you are doing would be an rca-mini cable, with 1/4" male to rca adapters, and xlr female to rca adapters. That should get you there 99% of the time.

I don't have attenuators, I just ask the person running the board to drop my signal back so that the house music just barely gets my levels going, assuming the band will be much louder.

Fried Chicken Boy · « **Reply #3 on:** April 09, 2012, 04:42:30 PM »

Quote from: yltfan on April 09, 2012, 04:29:21 PM

Agree with everything acidjack says above, although I get more xlr outs than rca or 1/4". But I have never done a 1/4" stereo patch. If it's not too late, I would cancel that cable, I think it will be of little use.

A good setup for what you are doing would be an rca-mini cable, with 1/4" male to rca adapters, and xlr female to rca adapters. That should get you there 99% of the time.

x2. As for the rest, I've gotten XLR outs from the console about 90% of the time I have a feed; RCA for the remaining 10%. The only time I've personally ever needed 1/4" is if I wanted to plug directly into a sub, but then you'll need to multi-track it.

brad.bartels · « **Reply #4 on:** April 09, 2012, 04:59:20 PM »

Had the same question myself a while back and somebody pointed me to this thread:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,121657.0.html

Found it very helpful and I think that should cover just about any situation you encounter. Not sure how much time you have before the show - it took me a while to accumulate everything.

live2cd · « **Reply #5 on:** April 09, 2012, 05:00:47 PM »

when I started getting serious about taping (10+ years ago), I dabbled w/ sbd recording as I was friends with Local H's soundguy. He let me run whatever I wanted (RCA some, XLR at some) and I gotta say... every single time I ran board, the aud sounded better. Ive never gone back to soundboard. Even those arena shows sounded flat! You gotta run a multi-track, and I dont have the money for that.

Funny thing is Scott (the lead singer, guitar player) heard the board recordings I was making and putting on Archive and demanded soon after (late 2003) that SBD's were no longer allowed. Only for acoustic solo performances. Kind of funny.

yltfan · « **Reply #6 on:** April 09, 2012, 05:07:22 PM »

^ Agreed. Unless you're in a big room, or can get a custom mix, AUD is better than SBD, but a good mix of both can be great.

brad.bartels · « **Reply #7 on:** April 09, 2012, 05:09:10 PM »

Quote from: live2cd on April 09, 2012, 05:00:47 PM

when I started getting serious about taping (10+ years ago), I dabbled w/ sbd recording as I was friends with Local H's soundguy. He let me run whatever I wanted (RCA some, XLR at some) and I gotta say... every single time I ran board, the aud sounded better. Ive never gone back to soundboard. Even those arena shows sounded flat! You gotta run a multi-track, and I dont have the money for that.

Funny thing is Scott (the lead singer, guitar player) heard the board recordings I was making and putting on Archive and demanded soon after (late 2003) that SBD's were no longer allowed. Only for acoustic solo performances. Kind of funny.

Agree and pretty much same thing acidjack said as well. If you have the equipment - either 2 recorders or ability to run 4 channels, I would definitely run both mics and SBD. If one is clearly better, you can just go with it or do a matrix. A matrix is not something I've ventured to try yet, but I'm sure you can get help here from folks (first I'd need the equipment to be able to run both...).

achalsey · « **Reply #8 on:** April 09, 2012, 06:17:52 PM »

I seem to use 1/4" the most I believe. RCA cable with 1/4" adapters has gotten me by at everywhere in town except one place that has only XLR outs.

towncop1978 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 09, 2012, 06:18:37 PM »

geeez guys..... each one of you guys provided very good information.. I have two weeks for this event. the venue is a small one, less than 500 peeps.... I went ahead and ordered mini to rca, mini to xrl male and female... once again thanks...

yltfan · « **Reply #10 on:** April 09, 2012, 07:03:43 PM »

Quote from: towncop1978 on April 09, 2012, 06:18:37 PM

geeez guys..... each one of you guys provided very good information.. I have two weeks for this event. the venue is a small one, less than 500 peeps.... I went ahead and ordered mini to rca, mini to xrl male and female... once again thanks...

XLR male is highly unlikely, I'd skip that, and since you don't have 1/4", the likelihood of that being the only option just shot way up (Murphy's Law) so I recommend going to Rat Shack or somewhere and spending $8 or so on rca-1/4" adapters.

acidjack · « **Reply #11 on:** April 10, 2012, 02:00:12 PM »

Quote from: yltfan on April 09, 2012, 07:03:43 PM

Quote from: towncop1978 on April 09, 2012, 06:18:37 PM
geeez guys..... each one of you guys provided very good information.. I have two weeks for this event. the venue is a small one, less than 500 peeps.... I went ahead and ordered mini to rca, mini to xrl male and female... once again thanks...

XLR male is highly unlikely, I'd skip that, and since you don't have 1/4", the likelihood of that being the only option just shot way up (Murphy's Law) so I recommend going to Rat Shack or somewhere and spending $8 or so on rca-1/4" adapters.

Agree with this and all of the above.

FWIW I've found that the smaller the venue the more likely you are to encounter an older board with RCA "REC" outs rather than the (much better) prospect of using one of their XLR outs. That may just be peculiar to where I am and the venues I go to. All of the bigger venues with nicer, newer equipment seem to give out XLR feeds; one that I go to uses 1/4".

If given a choice, of course always go with XLR. And as yltfan said, if the sound guy is nice and has an independent level control on the SBD, get him (or her) to turn the feed down for you as he suggested.

easyed · « **Reply #12 on:** April 23, 2012, 04:21:12 AM »

The assessment that soundboards sound worse than audience does not apply to acoustic music, that is, music without drums or electric guitars.

If the soundman is doing a poor job mixing, a soundboard will be unsatisfactory. But then so would the audience recording of the same show.

For acoustic stringed instrumental music, it is highly unlikely that an audience recording would be superior to a soundboard.

Does a mandolin sound better from one foot away or fifty feet away? Acoustic guitar?

yousef · « **Reply #13 on:** April 23, 2012, 05:56:53 AM »

Quote from: easyed on April 23, 2012, 04:21:12 AM

Does a mandolin sound better from one foot away or fifty feet away? Acoustic guitar?

I don't think it's always as straightforward as that.

Two things that spring immediately to mind are that board feeds are generally quite thin sounding and uninvolving without a bit of room ambience in there plus I find that adding an audience source to the mix often takes the edge off that nasty processed sound that many piezo-equipped acoustic guitars have on a raw board tape.

One thought I always keep in mind is that the sound is being mixed to sound good through the PA in that particular venue on that particular night. Quite a big difference between that and putting the same signal though a stereo system at home. I'm sure it'll sound clean and clear but will it necessarily sound musical?

Plus board tapes are usually (as good as) mono, have muted audience reaction...

runonce · « **Reply #14 on:** April 23, 2012, 07:27:53 AM »

Quote from: easyed on April 23, 2012, 04:21:12 AM

The assessment that soundboards sound worse than audience does not apply to acoustic music, that is, music without drums or electric guitars.

If the soundman is doing a poor job mixing, a soundboard will be unsatisfactory. But then so would the audience recording of the same show.

For acoustic stringed instrumental music, it is highly unlikely that an audience recording would be superior to a soundboard.

Does a mandolin sound better from one foot away or fifty feet away? Acoustic guitar?

In most cases - you aren't recording a mandolin - you're recording a speaker.

I agree with the yousef - acoustic soundboards can sound a bit sterile, and fatiguing - especially with the muted crowd response.
A guitar eq that may have been good for the room, might be annoying on a home stereo - this is particularly true for acoustic recordings.
I often find strings sound too "picky" (too much pick click)

Upon listening - your instinct is to think the full, clear signal of the SBD is "better" - but the art of this hobby is figuring out how to record a compelling AUD.

I only go board if I know the AUD will be a dog - or if Im feeling lazy and want to limit my effort to a deck and a pair of RCAs.

I might make the exception for the increasingly rare situation where a band might not be using instruments will pickups or DIs - and will instead be mic'd individually - the leak on the mics is enough to add some live "slop" to give a nice feel - that might make a nice board.

acidjack · « **Reply #15 on:** April 23, 2012, 08:41:22 AM »

I would agree generally that solo acoustic shows are *better* SBDs than, say, a full rock band, but they still aren't always in balance. Also you have the factor of talking that makes the SBD more valuable. When I matrix such shows, it's usually more like 75-80% SBD and just a little AUD thrown in to make it less sterile.

yousef · « **Reply #16 on:** April 23, 2012, 09:24:36 AM »

And don't forget all those off-mic moments - Jonathan Richman and Hamell on Trial are both acoustic artists where I've been more than glad to to have an audience tape due to the amount of stray from the microphones.

And sometimes practicalities win out: an extreme example - on Friday we taped a band that consisted of vocal, acoustic guitar, cello, double bass, drums, and keys. The board tape is great - probably the best I've ever captured myself - there's real warmth there and everything seems to gel together very nicely. BUT the band played an extraordinary encore, in the middle of the room, unamplified and, of course, there is nothing of it on that tape. If we hadn't have been running mics too we would have lost that amazing performance - the part of the gig that was probably the most memorable for those that attended.

I guess if I had to choose one or the other at a small acoustic gig, there may be significant temptation to go for the sbd but I know I would ideally want both board and mics if possible.

runonce · « **Reply #17 on:** April 23, 2012, 10:59:24 AM »

I've actually had pretty good luck adding reverb to dry boards for a more musical sound - goes against my grain a bit, but hard to argue against it.

In Audacity - I clone my trackset - add reverb to the clone, and mix it in as a second source...

acidjack · « **Reply #18 on:** April 23, 2012, 11:12:07 AM »

Quote from: runonce on April 23, 2012, 10:59:24 AM

I've actually had pretty good luck adding reverb to dry boards for a more musical sound - goes against my grain a bit, but hard to argue against it.

In Audacity - I clone my trackset - add reverb to the clone, and mix it in as a second source...

I think that's a great idea. I've used the reverb in the rare times I've recorded a band directly, and it's really necessary on vocals I find. Always too dry without it.

yousef · « **Reply #19 on:** April 23, 2012, 11:34:05 AM »

One of the first board recordings I ever did (acoustic guitar and female vocal) sounded, to me, very thin, cold and brittle. I spent ages messing around with it and in the end gave it a slight bass boost and a tiny bit of reverb - I thought it sounded fantastic. I played it to my girlfriend, doing the A/B thing, and said she hated the processed version as it sounded too slick vs the raw tape...

Horses for courses, I guess. I still think the processed verison sound fantastic fwiw but I do always think about that conversation when doing something similar.

OldNeumanntapr · « **Reply #20 on:** May 18, 2012, 12:42:46 AM »

I've encountered XLR outputs more than anything else whenever I've plugged into a mixing board. Proper attenuation is a MUST, as mixing boards are pro equipment and have a +4db output, vs the consumer -10db. (I always use my Tascam DA-P1 which has pro XLR inputs and does not need attenuation.)

Get yourself a set of inline pads and keep them handy. (Even if you keep your levels low, you can still encounter brick walling without proper pads.) I plugged my D7 into a board once and kept the levels low, and still had some distortion on the peaks. (The sound man may lower the level for you, but usually he's busy with running the mix.)

I agree that soundboard recordings in small venues can sound unbalanced, as they are trying to get the room to sound good and not the tape.

hoppedup · « **Reply #21 on:** May 19, 2012, 09:57:53 AM »

Taped board-only last night due to an extremely chatty crowd and folks already in the sweet spot when I arrived. Was a nice mix to start, but the sound guy rode the vocal levels like a roller coaster. I've listened to six songs so far and each one is useless.

I always have XLRF>RCAF and 1/4">RCAF adapters with me that I use with a RCAM>mini cable. That is sufficient for most any SBD patch. I also have XLRM>RCAF but have never had to use them.