Topic: Schoeps - Nbob Actives - Tinybox - M10 & Distortion Problems

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Most methods of measuring unity gain are flawed.  There really is no such thing with modern chipsets and designs.
It's all about what sounds best.

Back to the OP's problem..  It should be fairly easy to reproduce and verify the problem by using a bass heavy source and playing it back into the tb and the m10 combo, and also to just the m10.  The distortion should be easily audible on the headphone out.  Once reproduced, you can try and make adjustments to improve the situation.  If you have a voltmeter, you can measure the signal level on the a/c setting.  It won't be entirely accurate but if done properly it can be a useful reference.

Unless my quick measurement was wrong, the sample that was posted had an average rms level of -23dB.  That's extremely low and it should have looked low on the m10 meter.

[aaronji]

I've used my M10 from 2 on the dial up to a fully cranked 10 on the dial, and have never noticed any ill effects.  Which isn't to say that controlled testing might show more or less noise if run at the extremes, but there don't seem to be any glaring issues running across a pretty full range (still not sure what happens if you get into the 0-1 range).

The "minimum safe input level" has been estimated as 1.5 - 2 mic-in (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=154969.msg2014600#msg2014600) and 1 line-in (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.msg1722942#msg1722942)...

Good post on unity gain, by the way.

[willndmb]

Can't recall the post but I do remember somebody else measured unity gain, and it was determined that it's closer to 4.5 to 5 on LINE input.   That's what I've always run and haven't run into problems.  Ever.

i have seen 2-5
i did my own test with white noise and it was 4 on every one of them (3 tests total with different levels being feed to the m10)

[Datfly]

Seriously. I thought that going past that would let the deck amp over ride the TB pre-amp and distort, or something along those lines.

BTW Datfly, by no means did I mean to give you grief for what you did -- makes total sense given all the info around here on what levels to run the M10.  I'm just exasperated with the prevailing conventional wisdom on this board about unity gain and how important it is.  I think it leads people to the false conclusion that there is some narrow range that recorders can be safely run within.

I've used my M10 from 2 on the dial up to a fully cranked 10 on the dial, and have never noticed any ill effects.  Which isn't to say that controlled testing might show more or less noise if run at the extremes, but there don't seem to be any glaring issues running across a pretty full range (still not sure what happens if you get into the 0-1 range).

I recorded Blue Oyster Cult tonight. I was 5th row in front of the overhead stack & had the bass cabinets on the floor. It was pretty loud & bassy and I took Todd's advice and I set the TB on LOW & pushed the M10 to 8 to get the levels I needed.
Came out GREAT. No ill effects. A good solid recording.

It still wasn't a face in the stack Rush concert but it shows me the M10 CAN go past 5 on the dial and still come out great.
Otherwise I would have had this show on LOW & the dial around 4.  I kind of wish I did the encores with that setting to compare
but I am happy with the final product.

Datfly

[F.O.Bean]

Thanks to this thread, I will prob get my KCY TB set to 10/20/30 and will most often use the 20 setting. Is this a fair assumption

[F.O.Bean]

Seriously. I thought that going past that would let the deck amp over ride the TB pre-amp and distort, or something along those lines.

BTW Datfly, by no means did I mean to give you grief for what you did -- makes total sense given all the info around here on what levels to run the M10.  I'm just exasperated with the prevailing conventional wisdom on this board about unity gain and how important it is.  I think it leads people to the false conclusion that there is some narrow range that recorders can be safely run within.

I've used my M10 from 2 on the dial up to a fully cranked 10 on the dial, and have never noticed any ill effects.  Which isn't to say that controlled testing might show more or less noise if run at the extremes, but there don't seem to be any glaring issues running across a pretty full range (still not sure what happens if you get into the 0-1 range).

I recorded Blue Oyster Cult tonight. I was 5th row in front of the overhead stack & had the bass cabinets on the floor. It was pretty loud & bassy and I took Todd's advice and I set the TB on LOW & pushed the M10 to 8 to get the levels I needed.
Came out GREAT. No ill effects. A good solid recording.

It still wasn't a face in the stack Rush concert but it shows me the M10 CAN go past 5 on the dial and still come out great.
Otherwise I would have had this show on LOW & the dial around 4.  I kind of wish I did the encores with that setting to compare
but I am happy with the final product.

Datfly

I have had my 9100 on mid levels and my M10 at 10 on the gain knob, and that came out great too. I didnt realize the m10 was at 10 until I got home. So you DO NOT ALWAYS Have to have the m10 between 3-5. You can push it to the MAX at 10 and still get a great recording

[noahbickart]

Folks, there is nothing **inherently** problematic about running the sony m10 (or any other digital recorder) below a certain value.

The confusion stems from this:

If you have a fixed level preamp and need to run your m10 below ~2 to get proper levels, this is **indicative** of the kind of levels which will overload the clipping level of the analog preamp. Brickwalling is analog noise.

Conversely, there is nothing **inherently** problematic with adding gain at the A>D stage as opposed to the Microphrone Preamplifier stage.

All tapers should understand the basics of gain structure:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr98/articles/gainstructure.html

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Folks, there is nothing **inherently** problematic about running the sony m10 (or any other digital recorder) below a certain value.

Well..  The Edirol R09 caused distortion when run at gain settings below 8. The distortion became progressively worse as the level was further reduced.  It was something I first posted about many years ago on TS.  There were quite a few arguments about it, with some emphatically stating that it did not have the problem.  But all R09's do.

These are typically black boxes in regard to how they add and attenuate gain.  Whether that occurs in the digitial or analog domain.

Considering that the m10's knob gradually mutes the signal to nothing, it is entirely likely that issues arise when it is reduced below a certain point.

Only careful testing can validate the optimal performance envelope of a piece of gear, and especially a specific gear combination.