Topic: JB3 levels

[AT853rxwh]

ouch, that sounds even worse than compression

although I understand compression has thresholds and whatnot added

It isnt tho, if you set the limiter at 0db then you would not get anything higher, now if you are setting your levels correctly, you shouldn't be hitting 0.  With the limiter in place, you are going to limit what would normally clip to 0 db.  So basically it is a hard limit and that is why they advertise the mp-2 as unclipable.  If you run your levels too high and let the limiter kick in all the time, it is going to sound like ass, but then again, it was going to sound like ass anyway cuz you would have clipped instead...

[Sean Gallemore]

just don't clip and your problems are solved

[AT853rxwh]

just don't clip and your problems are solved

You do that at the risk of levels that are too low... Then you have to "damage" the recording by normalizing...  Like I said before, limiters are to be used as a safety net. 

[John Kelly]

just don't clip and your problems are solved

You do that at the risk of levels that are too low... Then you have to "damage" the recording by normalizing...  Like I said before, limiters are to be used as a safety net. 

This is a "feature" that many people will be resistant to use, regardless of how you explain it.  I'm still not completely sold on it, except for maybe acoustic recordings when the crowd is louder than the music...  I have my limiter calibrated but I don't plan on using it much.

[Sean Gallemore]

just don't clip and your problems are solved

You do that at the risk of levels that are too low... Then you have to "damage" the recording by normalizing...  Like I said before, limiters are to be used as a safety net. 

This is a "feature" that many people will be resistant to use, regardless of how you explain it.  I'm still not completely sold on it, except for maybe acoustic recordings when the crowd is louder than the music...  I have my limiter calibrated but I don't plan on using it much.

I shared the same sentiments with Moke about acoustic music and loud applauses.  Most of the stuff I tape is very heavy, and within 30 seconds of the first song the loudest sound of the night will have been played.  If I ever felt the need, I am glad the instructions are here.

[John Kelly]

just don't clip and your problems are solved

You do that at the risk of levels that are too low... Then you have to "damage" the recording by normalizing...  Like I said before, limiters are to be used as a safety net. 

This is a "feature" that many people will be resistant to use, regardless of how you explain it.  I'm still not completely sold on it, except for maybe acoustic recordings when the crowd is louder than the music...  I have my limiter calibrated but I don't plan on using it much.

I shared the same sentiments with Moke about acoustic music and loud applauses.  Most of the stuff I tape is very heavy, and within 30 seconds of the first song the loudest sound of the night will have been played.  If I ever felt the need, I am glad the instructions are here.

I'd set it up anyway.  That way if you ever decide you need it at a show you don't have to find your way back here to set it up.

[F.O.Bean]

ouch, that sounds even worse than compression

although I understand compression has thresholds and whatnot added

It isnt tho, if you set the limiter at 0db then you would not get anything higher, now if you are setting your levels correctly, you shouldn't be hitting 0.  With the limiter in place, you are going to limit what would normally clip to 0 db.  So basically it is a hard limit and that is why they advertise the mp-2 as unclipable.  If you run your levels too high and let the limiter kick in all the time, it is going to sound like ass, but then again, it was going to sound like ass anyway cuz you would have clipped instead...

ummm, why isnt hitting 0db good???

i dont mean HITTING it, but an occassional "over" shows me that im getting the most of my 16 bits that i can!!

dont over saturate, but an occassional 0db hit iosnt that bad a thing, also depends on pre/ad too!!

[AT853rxwh]

ouch, that sounds even worse than compression

although I understand compression has thresholds and whatnot added

It isnt tho, if you set the limiter at 0db then you would not get anything higher, now if you are setting your levels correctly, you shouldn't be hitting 0.  With the limiter in place, you are going to limit what would normally clip to 0 db.  So basically it is a hard limit and that is why they advertise the mp-2 as unclipable.  If you run your levels too high and let the limiter kick in all the time, it is going to sound like ass, but then again, it was going to sound like ass anyway cuz you would have clipped instead...

ummm, why isnt hitting 0db good???

i dont mean HITTING it, but an occassional "over" shows me that im getting the most of my 16 bits that i can!!

dont over saturate, but an occassional 0db hit iosnt that bad a thing, also depends on pre/ad too!!

An occasional over in the digital world is clipping... If you like crunchy sound (clipping) then go for it.  The idea is to use as many bits as possible WITHOUT going over...

Yeah these are prolly the same people that thought up cell phone plans   

[Sean Gallemore]

I run overs all the time and I dare you to point it on my last 2 recordings without the the usual aids

[AT853rxwh]

I run overs all the time and I dare you to point it on my last 2 recordings without the the usual aids

Overs on your Neuros or mp-2? 

[Sean Gallemore]

definitely wouldn't push overs on the mp-2.  That'll definitely ruin a recording.  Fucked up atleast 2 that way.

I run it hot on the Neuros.

I'm not trying to be an ass or arguementative.  I'm just saying that for the type of music I record, I don't think I need the limiter.  Maybe I can get armen to explain it to me in person.  I still don't see how it's gonna help.

[AT853rxwh]

definitely wouldn't push overs on the mp-2.  That'll definitely ruin a recording.  Fucked up atleast 2 that way.

I run it hot on the Neuros.

I'm not trying to be an ass or arguementative.  I'm just saying that for the type of music I record, I don't think I need the limiter.  Maybe I can get armen to explain it to me in person.  I still don't see how it's gonna help.

Hey np, its a hard concept. 

But you said you don't run it hot on the MP-2 cuz it will ruin a recording.  I agree, and it wouldn't sound better if you used the limiter (running it too hot, as the limiter would be kicking in all the time, remember I said set the levels right, then add the limiter, this assumes that the limiter is set to max just before clipping).  HOWEVER, if you had a single spike that sent it over, that part would sound bad, the limiter would keep that from happening.  Any other time the limiter does nothing. 

Think of a limiter like a govenor (like they install on school buses, to max out at 55 or 65)  That govenor doesn't affect how fast you can accelerate to 55, doesn't care if you drive 25, but as soon as you try to do 70, it stops going faster, you do 55 and that is it.  The limiter takes you to the limit before clipping and thats it.  Below that it has no effect.  Does that make sense?

[F.O.Bean]

def makes sense

schwill??

[Sean Gallemore]

definitely wouldn't push overs on the mp-2.  That'll definitely ruin a recording.  Fucked up atleast 2 that way.

I run it hot on the Neuros.

I'm not trying to be an ass or arguementative.  I'm just saying that for the type of music I record, I don't think I need the limiter.  Maybe I can get armen to explain it to me in person.  I still don't see how it's gonna help.

Hey np, its a hard concept. 

But you said you don't run it hot on the MP-2 cuz it will ruin a recording.  I agree, and it wouldn't sound better if you used the limiter (running it too hot, as the limiter would be kicking in all the time, remember I said set the levels right, then add the limiter, this assumes that the limiter is set to max just before clipping).  HOWEVER, if you had a single spike that sent it over, that part would sound bad, the limiter would keep that from happening.  Any other time the limiter does nothing. 

Think of a limiter like a govenor (like they install on school buses, to max out at 55 or 65)  That govenor doesn't affect how fast you can accelerate to 55, doesn't care if you drive 25, but as soon as you try to do 70, it stops going faster, you do 55 and that is it.  The limiter takes you to the limit before clipping and thats it.  Below that it has no effect.  Does that make sense?

I know what it does, but it won't help me.

I have a question.  If I were to use the limiter and follow MattD's instructions, I would need to adjust the levels on my MP-2, correct?

[Todd R]

Don't get me wrong, you don't want the limiter to kick in at all (IOW you want to set the levels right!)  But in that rare case when something gets a bit louder for some reason, you won't be clipping and you will still have a useable recording.  When using a decent limiter, with the levels set where they should be, you won't hear it kick in.  Without it, that once in a lifetime recording is now trash...

Well, the once in a lifetime will probably not be trash.  I've had to use the clip restoration function in CoolEdit a few times, generally for fairly mild clipping.  Just recently I had to use it on a recording I got (not mine) that required 9db of attenuation and clip restoration to get back down to 0dbFS.  It still sounds really pretty good after the fix.  I would hope that most of us taping don't ever overshoot the mark by much more than 9db.   Not that I'm recommending this approach at all, but you can do a lot to save a fuct recording using Cooledit or the other sound programs.