Topic: Distributing stealth recordings

[Fryhoffer]

I just made my first stealth recording tonight and was wondering if there is any protocol dealing with distribution.  If I post the show(s) on... Sharing The Groove, for instance, and identify myself as the taper will I be in any kind of legal danger?  What's the deal with getting recordings out of artists who officially don't allow it?  I'm thinking it's probably fine, but I wanted to double-check here just in case.

Thanks!
Jon

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

I just use STG.org for my stealth recordings. Legal recordings go to bt.etree.org.

I don't credit myself on the stealth stuff (just to be on the safe side). I believe it's still posible for someone to figure out who you are via your IP. Bit Torrent is not anonymous. I'm under the impression that you don't have much to worry about.

MIKE B

[Fryhoffer]

Say an artist, like Guster, allows recording but the venue doesn't... would that be considered "legal?"  Postable on bt.etree.org?

[Swampy]

You'll be fine!

[Sean Gallemore]

Say an artist, like Guster, allows recording but the venue doesn't... would that be considered "legal?"  Postable on bt.etree.org?

Yeah, all they care about is staying out of legal trouble with the band.

[greenone]

The venues can't come after you, because the act of recording isn't illegal. All it does is break the contract you entered into when you bought your ticket, and since all they can legally do for breaking that contract is kick you out of the venue, you've got nothing to worry about. If it's Guster, post on archive.org - I've got a few recordings of no-recording-allowed shows but the band doesn't care, it was just the venue/promoters/headlining act being a pain in the ass.

[Fryhoffer]

Thanks for the help guys!

[Nick in Edinboro]

anyone who posts there needs a lesson in ethics, regarding our hobby.

I understand your point Moke, but those who post concerts for free download, especially those of which are of taper friendly bands don't seem to me to be the ones requiring the lesson in ethics.  More so I believe those trying to accure a profit are the ones requiring some teaching.

You could say it's a question of "feeding the fire" but I fail to see the ethical dilemma with seeding a show for free download on the internet.

[nickgregory]

I disagree wholeheartedly.  Trading and sharing goes hand in hand...always has, in the last 15 years I have been doing this....

[Nick in Edinboro]

I will attribute that to everyones rush to taper fame in posting thier recordings, and the masses not having a clue of ethics.

Ugh.  Haven't we had this same conversation before   You attribute all this blame on the distribution methods today compared to the that of yore but don't even put into consideration the duplication methods of today.  Now we have blank CD-R's which can be duplicated in seconds using files on a computer and a CD-ROM drive.  Back in the days of yore, of your elegiac memories of Euro presses, etc. you had to have glass masters right?  Or atleast some sort of stamping system far beyond owning a personal computer.

Today kids are bootleggers, back then it was a little more involved.

Don't blame the distribution, blame the duplication IMHO.

[zhianosatch]

Bottom line: It's not the taper's fault.

[Fryhoffer]

Let me get this straight... the issue is people bootlegging recordings that we have made of artists that do not allow taping.  What better way to thwart the bootleggers efforts than to make such a recording widely available?  It seems even sending out only 3 or 4 copies can eventually cause a bootlegging issue.  My opinion is, if you're going to distribute... go all out. Then no one will have any need to purchase a bootleg.  Two situations...

Concert recorded > distributed to select few > bootlegging follows
Concert recorded > distributed to masses > bootlegging mostly worthless

The way I see it... if you're going to give it to even one person, might as well give it to everyone.  If a show is going to get out anyway, the artist will probably prefer people not profiting from it.  Of course, I have limited experience and may not understand the seriousness of the bootlegging industry as well as others.

[Tim]

Let me get this straight... the issue is people bootlegging recordings that we have made of artists that do not allow taping.  What better way to thwart the bootleggers efforts than to make such a recording widely available?  It seems even sending out only 3 or 4 copies can eventually cause a bootlegging issue.  My opinion is, if you're going to distribute... go all out. Then no one will have any need to purchase a bootleg.  Two situations...

Concert recorded > distributed to select few > bootlegging follows
Concert recorded > distributed to masses > bootlegging mostly worthless

The way I see it... if you're going to give it to even one person, might as well give it to everyone.  If a show is going to get out anyway, the artist will probably prefer people not profiting from it.  Of course, I have limited experience and may not understand the seriousness of the bootlegging industry as others.

in a perfect world you would be correct. But you are assuming that every person seeking a copy of the show has the knowledge of free trading, has the time to find someone with a copy and consumate a trade, has the technological capabilities to trade etec.

it's pretty apparent that we're not living in a tape trading utopia, more copies are available for free than ever before yet we are finding bootlegs in ebay on a daily basis. To me this is pretty clear evidence that flooding the percieved market has had little to no effect.

[Nick Culbreth]

Let me get this straight... the issue is people bootlegging recordings that we have made of artists that do not allow taping.  What better way to thwart the bootleggers efforts than to make such a recording widely available?  It seems even sending out only 3 or 4 copies can eventually cause a bootlegging issue.  My opinion is, if you're going to distribute... go all out. Then no one will have any need to purchase a bootleg.  Two situations...

Concert recorded > distributed to select few > bootlegging follows
Concert recorded > distributed to masses > bootlegging mostly worthless

The way I see it... if you're going to give it to even one person, might as well give it to everyone.  If a show is going to get out anyway, the artist will probably prefer people not profiting from it.  Of course, I have limited experience and may not understand the seriousness of the bootlegging industry as others.

i think don't think "flooding the market" puts an end to bootlegging because in most situations the members of the trading community who have access to the recordings are different than those individuals who actually buy the bootleg recordings.  most of the time the music i tape has little to no commercial value so there isn't really an issue but if i taped something with perceived worth i wouldn't go posting a bt on sharing the groove.

[Sloan Simpson]

I hope they can/do track ip's for stg.com!
anyone who posts there needs a lesson in ethics, regarding our hobby.

That's a pretty big blanket there. . . Does that cover, say, an up-and-coming band who finds people coming to hear them in a town they've never played before because people downloaded and enjoyed what they heard?  Or were you just referring to stealth tapes, and not open-taping situations?

Sloan

[Sloan Simpson]

in the general topic of discussion here, stealth recordings.

And I am surly at that hour, so watch out,.... coffee ain't kickin in until an hour or so after that time quoted

Gotcha, just wanted to be clear.  I've been mostly off of coffee/caffeine for the last month, so I'm surly at pretty much any hour at this point 

Sloan

[Fryhoffer]

Thanks guys, for chiming in.  This has been an educational thread... I had no idea about the bootlegs on eBay.  Tim and nmculbreth, you both make good points, neither of which I took into account in my previous post.  I don't think the artists (Guster and Ben Folds) I stealthed last night are the kind that are so sought after that either would end up on eBay, or be bootlegged at all.  But all this is definitely good to know.

Maybe I'll add a little mp3 to commemorate my first successful stealth and thank you all for your comments. 

[Sloan Simpson]

no coffee?,.... headache sets in 8-[

seeing as how I don't have the deepest fondness for these sites, and have been basically a non-participant of any kind,....
How far do the stealth recordings go to list the whole stealthing technique lineage?
(thats like a magician giving up secrets there! grrrr)

It runs anywhere from full disclosure to "AUD" . . .

Sloan

[taperkat]

my biggest policy is to make sure bands get copies of their recordings. I stealthed 2 of 3 nights of the Bluegrass Sessions back in 2001 - which was not only anti taping, but pretty much severe anti taping, and the 3rd night was a tornado warning, I walked out ofmy car in hip-deep flooding rain, there was 10 inches of water in the orchestra pit. I actually had the foresight to hit record at the beginning of one of the funniest rants I've ever heard in my ENTIRE life.

Actually that entire night, i was just in the right placea t the right time.

My ticket was on the floor, right by the aisle, but in front of me was 2 rows of dead air due to the seats being removed. I walked around prior to the show to find out *oh yeah* that's where the old soundboard was. Therefore, acoustically, it was one of the best places to be.

for the 2nd act, the people beside me left. (*IDIOTS*) but awesome for my recording.

I managed to make every flip (at this time I only had 1 md player) perfectly and missed nothing.

After the show, I was in a daze, and forgot to put my mics away; Bela looked at me, grinned, and made a motion - I looked down and stuffed them in my shirt and tried to play it off. (only time I've ever been caught, too).

I got the show converted (i need to get it reconverted ) and collected the best copies from each show (mine for the 19th was bad bad because it was my 21st birthday, and you can just imagine that I couldn't barely WALK straight much less tape straight but I had the only source for the 20th) CD copies I gave to Bela after a show in Iowa. He said "well, we taped it soundboard" and i had the lovely insight to say "Yes, but now you get to hear it from our view" and he gave me a hug and said "That's what we really want to hear anyway."

Still haven't circulated that show properly, though I have permission. Everyone that I got a copy of their show from I gave a copy to, and a few friends, and that's about it. Definitely need to get it reconverted though...

um, anyway, basically, after that was when i really realized how much the power of stealth really has...

For example, I was able to pull a couple soundboards of a little "punk" but more "power punk emo" band, including an open mic night set at the Bottleneck in early December.

The next summer, they're headlining Warped Tour. Yup, that's Something Corporate. The guys are like "you want to tape, tape, give em out, you showed us what good tapers do".

*nod*

[Zaphod]

You know I have to agree qith Moke on this.

We as steath tapers DO have a responsibility to make sure our recordings do not end up on eBay. If a band is completely adament (sp?) about thier stuff getting sold by bootleggers (which is just about every band), then we really have to make sure that it does not happen.

Just imagine if everyone just really truly did not care or take responsibilty for their shows? How many more would be up on eBay everyday? It reflects extremly badly on the taping community. None of us need nazi security guards at every venue.

With that said I won't every bit torrent any of my shows at sharingthegroove.

[taperkat]

i have never wanted to stealth more in my life than i did tonight - I got turned away by Sister Hazel to record tonight, because they're playing new songs and they don't want them circulated. I was even at a preparty all set up to tape and signed a release for HOB and everything -- signed ON THE FORM that I would not circulate, I would give them the master -- and shot down. Still got told no.

I SO wanted to tape tonight - but the band knows me. Which is why I'm taking this a bit personally.

They also know that I left in tears, $20 poorer because I couldn't sell my ticket so i just gave it to a friend to give to someone else and that every single Hazelnut [fan club] there I know knows I got told no tonight.

some days it doesn't fucking pay to have morals. But I respect these guys way too much.

Damnit. I'm still stunned that a very pro taping band like that says no.. IMHO - you don't want your shit out on the internet, DON'T PLAY IT LIVE. Nothing would have stopped me from calling my friend who's got a wiretap on his phone he's got hooked to his computer AND STREAMING THE ENTIRE SHOW.

Except my fucking morals.

Damnit. 

[Nick Culbreth]

i have never wanted to stealth more in my life than i did tonight - I got turned away by Sister Hazel to record tonight, because they're playing new songs and they don't want them circulated. I was even at a preparty all set up to tape and signed a release for HOB and everything -- signed ON THE FORM that I would not circulate, I would give them the master -- and shot down. Still got told no.

I SO wanted to tape tonight - but the band knows me. Which is why I'm taking this a bit personally.

They also know that I left in tears, $20 poorer because I couldn't sell my ticket so i just gave it to a friend to give to someone else and that every single Hazelnut [fan club] there I know knows I got told no tonight.

some days it doesn't fucking pay to have morals. But I respect these guys way too much.

Damnit. I'm still stunned that a very pro taping band like that says no.. IMHO - you don't want your shit out on the internet, DON'T PLAY IT LIVE. Nothing would have stopped me from calling my friend who's got a wiretap on his phone he's got hooked to his computer AND STREAMING THE ENTIRE SHOW.

Except my fucking morals.

Damnit. 

you left the show crying because you couldn't tape?  things like this happen all the time, you probably shouldn't take it so personally.

[taperkat]

No, it was much more than that. And I"ve been told no before - it's just the way it came about was completely shitty.

Mainly because their management knew beforehand, by over a week, that I'd be taping.

[Nick Culbreth]

No, it was much more than that. And I"ve been told no before - it's just the way it came about was completely shitty.

Mainly because their management knew beforehand, by over a week, that I'd be taping.

i'm sorry about your troubles but taping isn't a right, it's a priviledge.  it just seems like it's silly to get worked up over being asked politely by a band not to tape a show.

[taperkat]

To each their own. I know it's a priviledge, which is why I didn't stealth it.

[MATTZS]

Moke,
   You’ve hit on one of my biggest fears. I love trading and taping, when I pull a great tape I’m so excited that I want to share it with everyone. I see your points and for sure the world has too many unscrupulous people! It’s to bad we have to be so guarded with our tapes, we do have a responsibility to protect what we have created, and make sure, to the best of our ability’s, that they don’t get into the wrong hands. Thanks for getting me back in line with my morals.
Matt

[John R]

touchy subject for sure.  we are responsible to the artists for not distributing an unauthorized recording.  i personally have not sent anything to etree, archive, or stg.  a lot of my stuff has ended up on etree and bb.  some of it has had to be pulled and i've given lineage info for others, especially stuff on bb.  mike has some of my stuff that has never seen daylight, and i know in his hands, it never will.  i freely trade/feed stuff from open taping bands, but it is still via snail mail.  i think i'm going to run my first torrents from some stuff from telluride, but on a very lowkey site.  all this to say, i don't want to be the one responsible for any artist's work being sold on ebay. 

i have a scenario where a fellow taper called me up and was chastising me because a board of taj was up on bt.etree  the taper was responsible for me, the archivist, to be able to record the show(with a copy going to him of course)  during the conversation, he mentions "my only copies went to 'X' the soundguy, 'Y' the stage manager, 'Z" the..."  bummer.  i've searched bt.etree every day since, and it's not listed, so i think he may be mistaken in what he saw.  what i'm not mistaken about, is that he has precluded himself from ever getting any sbd copies of any sets at this event.

just be careful, like mike alluded to, 1 copy has the potential to turn into 1000's.  choose wisely, and keep your recordings close to your chest.

rambling...

jr

[Humbug]

This thread has been interesting reading.

The situation with an up and coming rock band that I stealth tape is that they don't have any material of their own to sell at shows - their EP is a couple of months off and the album probably next year.

My concern is that if I mass release the recordings I've made that it will affect future sales of their own music (or that they may think it will).

I've asked for clarification from the bands manager but no reply so far (in 2 months!).